I'm pretty sure they've got it at the Earlston Rd Reference Library if you get the chance to look. They also have a very impressive collection of large scale coastal maps in the Map Draws there.
If anyone's interested in the 1735 plan of Wallasey showing the racecourse, it's in vol.2 of Wirral Notes & Queries.
Well that may well be so, and it is not disputed that coastal defences existed at exposed locations next to the sea, at what date they were first constructed is another matter, but we can presume it would be centuries after Wiral's streams and rivers were originally named. As noted previously such names tend to spindown unchanged through the ages,and survive the language of successive peoplesbe they Saxon or Scandinavian. It is therefore difficult to associate the naming ofRiver Fender with sea defences. Moreover streams/rivers tend be named from spring along the water course, not from an area of salt marsh, dunes and partially protected by a defensive construction (as seems to have applied to that area of the coast). Then we have the river itself inland, minus protective embankments along its course, plus what of the areas other waterways, why would they not be named after such a construction? The whole explantion asks more questions than offering plausible answers
The maps seem to show they were draining the marsh for agriculture for a long while the drains feed into the main drains and I think they straightened up and widened and deepened the feeder Brooks (fendered) out of recognition they were just main land drains to the moss,the bit from Fornel bridge towards West Kirby/Meols is straight,did they have problems with high tides,heavy rain so could they get a back flow via Wallasey pool as that's what a marsh is for a sponge,if they had fendered it to the pool then that would be magnified but then they had mills down by the pool?.
I think that the Birket was named,when they built the Great culvert, it was diverted through it to Woodside?, the Fender it just stuck.
2 Kimprii has told me of the fender flooding as far as the main road thru Ford Estate in the 70s (think he can get hold of a pic) Date Flow 13/09/1973 9.44 16/06/1974 12.97 21/11/1974 5.54 26/09/1976 21.63 14/06/1977 4.74 04/06/1978 6.36 27/12/1978 4.6 05/12/1979 4.12 02/06/1981 4.4 measured at Ford Lane station
I, for one, wouldn't dream of beating you up davew3! Your contributions are as valid as anyone's. I don't think there are any real right or wrong answers, just opinions depending upon how you interpret the evidence.
It's like in archaeology:- they research a site first; dig it; record what they find; and then the guy in charge attempts to interpret the results. But, at the end of the day, that's only his opinion. Other people looking at the same evidence, or reading his report, might disagree with him totally.
We are just armchair historians & archaeologists, piecing together what evidence seems to exist and testing out a few theories. It's an interesting excercise in local history and even if Erainn (our site director??!!!) is more academically equiped to investigate the matter more seriously, we can all have our own opinions on the matter.
Chaps,no one here values diverse opinion or informed insights more than myself,so please let's stay on topic, which I agree has attracted some wonderful contributions and helpful information. For sure we are not able to reach definitive conclusions, but we can at least attempt a scale of probability. In that context I feel it unlikely that a river would be named at such a late point in time, and then after coastal defences, when it in all likelyhood carried a name centuries before the first map of the area was ever drawn. The question is for my interest, was that name The Fender? If so, did it derive from Celtic/Welsh/British beginnings? Now such speculation hardly constitutes a gentle tickle, let alone a slap
Pat on the back from me, davew3! I don’t necessarily go along with the assumption that all the watercourses in Wirral would have had ancient names. In comparative terms they are all insignificant, including the Birket which is acknowledged as the main one (even today apart from the Birket and Fender they are classified as ‘brooks’ which I understand is one step down from a stream). It could be that most were named for the first time in the early 19th century by Ordnance Survey who were tasked with recording all landmarks and giving them an appropriate name if they didn’t already have one.
I keep going back to Bert’s map showing the Birket as The Main Fender and the Fender as Ford Brook and asking: why ‘Main’ when at that time there was no other River Fender on the Wirral? Again, I would suggest that it was descriptive rather than the name of a river.
An early post by geekus pointed out that any stream which becomes managed as part of a drainage system can be termed a fender. In “Ancient Meols” (where the Birket is called a stagnant ditch!) there is a description of northern Wirral: “The deep ditches of sluggish water which intersect this plain in various directions, remind one of the divisions of fields which are common in the Fen country…” The Fens are, of course, naturally marshy regions in eastern England which were drained centuries ago, resulting in a flat, damp, low-lying agricultural region – quite descriptive of North Wirral.
I suggest that it might be useful to check the field-names on the local tithe schedules for the lands through which the Main Fender & Fender Brook appear to have run.
Look for any clues (particulary any evidence for Celtic/Welsh/or British names), particularly in the area around Woodchurch & Landican. It's all very well that we interpret the Landican name in particular as being early in origin but what other evidence is there? Field-names often remain unchanged for centuries and are more likely to provide at least hints of evidence concerning how they were used and by whom in the absence of other historical records.
A point of clarification, it is not an 'interpretation' to consider Landican as an ancient British place name;any more than it would be to describe Wallasey or Liscard as not deriving from such beginnings, it's generally thought to be so.
As to natural features, hills, streams, they tend to have names pre-dating what would be (in the case of Wirral at least) essentially Medieval field names/boundaries.
No general assumption was asserted that all streams in the Wirral possessed ancient names, rather it was speculated that it is highly unusal for such natural features to be named after artificial constructions and at presumably such a late stage of history. Also still puzzled as to why, if the Fender was named after such a coastal embankment, it of all similar streams, brooks or trickles should be singled out to be named that way, when others retained earlier titles?
If you read enough books on the subject of place-names etc., you find that theories come and go. Pick up a book written last century, or even just fifty years ago, and you will find some very different ideas on the origins of place-names. Such ideas go in and out of fashion. And although it is generally accepted that Landican comes from Welsh 'LLan' Tegan or Tecan, it is not the only idea that has been put forward. There is, for example, no known Welsh (or British?) saint called Tecan to have named the church (or Llan) after. Also, if you look at places like Wallasey it's not that long ago that people seriously suggested its name was derived from "Wall of the sea" or Wall at the sea. And even I know that the Walas part of the name can be interpreted as walls; wells; or welsh.
I personally am not a linguist, nor am I a qualified historian or archaeologist - I'm just someone who reads a lot. I do think field-names & place-names are useful but I also am aware that even some professional archaeologists have little faith in them, because they can often prove misleading.
I understand Erainn is after long ago river names a bit romantic but it's a valid a point,my thoughts,If you look back towards the sources they all drain off from the hills into the Moss but the names Ie Prenton brook, Newton brook etc appear to stop at the edge of the reaches of the Moss on the maps, with Prenton brook it stops at Woodchurch rd but the edge of the Moss appears to be just past Ford Bridge Upton,I think that as they drained the land it slowly dried up, you would need to continue the land drain up to the new edge of the Moss,I think the Birket is a bit different,I believe well guessing that Meols ,West Kirby drains went into Newton brook and that was the name up to the Moss,but over the years with the areas around Hoylake, West Kirby opening up they were draining the land as fast as they could and tidied up where needed and turned it into a Fendered river,it's worth a look to see if we can find any name apart from Fender,Cust I think he had spent a load on Mockbegger house to get up to standards and he was protecting his investment after maybe bit of his back garden was eaten by the sea,if you look it does do a dogs leg,the other thing is one of the maps says peat if you look at one of Berts other maps by Lingum and the lighthouse shows the the Birket is very close to what looks like shore sand ,it does say dunes by it on the map.
Agree that such an area of study is prone to some variety of opinion, it is not empirical nor a subject with proveable conclusions. You are correct to note the Welsh associations of those names, however mislead in the understanding of the origins of Landican, as the Saint involeved was neither Tegan nor Tegan, but probably Tecwyn, indeed there are a number of Llan-Decywn in Wales, of which Landican is a variation, echoing the British/Welsh settlement in the Wirral.
As to the Fender I have no attachment either way as to the origin, simply offering questions on possible alternatives, and enjoying the flow of ideaas and information. Besides, that part of the stream/river that interests me was, as noted in an ealier post, once named as the Ford Brook.
My offerings in terms of the possible origins of the name of the Fender itself, and its connection with the coast and eventual discharge into Wallasey Pool, are linked to that area of Wirral's historic asociation with a Welsh/British stronghold/settlement. The 'Island of The Welsh' as was once suggested for the meaning of Wallasey. Now if that has any foundation in fact, it is not too wild a fancy to conceive that a river passing through such land may well have been named by a local Welsh/British people. If we are prepared to consider such a proposal then there is a tantalizing hint offered by Welsh and Cornish terms respectively, for what's described as a 'managed spring', ffynnon and fenten. Not far removed from 'Fender'. Could it be its name derived from some original spring?
Purely as a point of interest, Richard Coates discussed the origins of the Landican place-name in a recent study of 'The sociolinguistics of north-western Wirral'. He argues that an early attribution of the church to Dagan (a seventh century Irish bishop) is likely.
