Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request River Fender

Is it possible that the various waterways on Wirral were too insignificant ages ago to have been given names until the land began to be more involved in farming and the big landowners sold off portions or had tenant farmers causing a need to then create boundaries and prevent flooding by either fendering or maybe even widening or making deeper some of the waterways and in so doing made them enough noticeable enough to warrant naming

I still believe as to what I said, somewhere back,I still believe that the Birket and Fender were too small to be named and looking at the Tithes, the drainage appears to have been done over many years and also has been straightened and modified and the naming was recent before the docks were built as I think they had to sort the drainage out before they could build the docks, not just the great culvert but around the area's where the tip is,yes they could have got permission and as they had to get Parliamentry approval, ok Erainn has a point about naming of rivers ,but watercourses long long ago,it's his area of expertise and where would we start, I am quite happy to try and attempt to prove that the rivers/watercourses/fenders of Wirral had names or not but how?.

What is being presented is not a personnal attachment, nor some flight of romanticism, although that genre of creativity should not of itself be considered a measure of falsehood. No, what is offered is the cold truth that natural features, such as rivers, are in the main carrying names ascribed at some early moment. Why, there appears such a resistance to that common tradition not applying to the Wirral is most curious, particularly given the paucity of hard facts, in terms of the river in question, which we are asked to accept was some nameless trickle, until the construction of coastal flood protection.

I'm happy to accept that alternative, as a possible model, if it were not for the relative closeness of Welsh/Cornish (Brythonic) names for a controlled spring/water with the actual name Fender. This scatches away insistently

It's a fair point and may well have applied, yet there are often riches to be found in a name (notice no refrence to conclusive evidence. While there is indeed reference to Fender, in terms of defence/barrier we also have it as a possible variant of an earlier Welsh/British name for controlled spring,

I think a good start would be to sort of the definitions of "River" , "Fender", "Brooks", "Streams" ,You idea Erainn is what I would call a Brook you seem to call a River,I only know of two rivers and they are the Dee and Mersey ,the Birket and Fender I would call Brooks, well the Fender a Brooklet.

Agree entirely with that point, more so as I recall playing near that very waterway and as you say hardly a raging torrent, but that in itself, more so in that part of the 'river' I'm interested in (not coastal defences in Meols) around Storeton/Landican (then called Ford Brook) raises doubts concerining supposed protective embankments along the course of such an insignificant water.

The other fact to note, and not without significance either, is across the country just how many seemingly unimportant brooks, streams have been named, and as noted from periods of some antiquity. Any OS map of decent scale will soon reveal that, so I'm not sure that size is always of prime relevance, in terms of ascribing a name.

It's all interconnected, to me I would have said that Prenton brook was the name of the "Fender" to the marshes and the lower reaches were "fendered" ,Iam not too sure about the Birket but I would have said Newton brook until it was "fendered" from little Meols,I also believe that there was a inundation into the birket not too far away Moreton lighthouse,Carr lane way where they have a sewer pipe into the Irish sea, but that's another thing.

That's plausible for sure, yet is dependent on the scenario of relatively late coastal defences and for whatever reason a renaming of a stream/river in favour of such constructions. It's very unusual for such features not to have been accorded a name at some far earlier time.

One of the other little problems is coastal erosion over the period your interested in too now, is it possible that the coast could have been to where low water gets to, if so was there more drainage or even a river that the brooks drained into which in turn drained into the Irish sea but as erosion continued got blocked by sandhills and the other natural outlet Wallasey pool, all guess work.

Fair observations, no doubt as to the shifting nature of the north Wirral coastline and inundation, that process would have been ongoing form a very early period. Of itself though it does not help in terms of the stream/brooks/river's name, as that is based upon an assumption that asserts the name of Fender being only a term for defence/barrier, therefore explaining the title.

Now, being from the Wirral myself I recall a certain 'hostility' towards anything Welsh, and I wonder, to what degree sub-conciously at least, such mild antipathy may explain the resistance to the notion of the Fender being named by British/Welsh peoples. Well, to those who prefer to celebrate the Wirral's Norse heritage kindly take note the following: The term 'Fen' derives also from the Old English fenn; related to Old High German fenna, Old Norse fen meaning either low, flat, swampy land; a bog or marsh or alternatively, 'mud'. Well now given the wealth of information presented on the inundations of north Wirral and the bog-like nature of Wallasey Pool, a picture forms as to why that specific region may be called Fen. This may well be the origin, as opposed to defensive embankments. So looking at it in terms of Germanic/Saxon languages 'Fender' is a variant/derivation of Der Fender, ie The Fen

However, it does not explain why inland, away from such an environment, a stream that lead eventually into such an area, once titled Ford Brook, would be renamed as the Fender, unless we are talking of mid-19th Century cartograhpic sloppiness.

As it's obvious you haven't got any name for the rivers/brooks in the time you are inquiring about but in your research have you seen any names for these rivers ,say Norman or civil war times?.

Am i wrong in suggesting, prior to any defencive structure the Main Fender(river) would have been a very significant river due to the tidal influence from Wallasey pool, hence the reason for a barrier in the first place.

Just a theory on the name change from Fender to Birket, reading Dr Mark Adams report further back in the thread, and other evidence, the Birket running from Tranmere pool up to New Brighton, etc, when the construction of Wallasey pool docks etc came about, it is possible the name birket would have been lost forever.
Its original course not appearing on modern maps, not wanting to dismiss this river completely due to the fact that there is a theory that Birkenhead got its name from it. With reconstruction of its flow, is it not possible they changed the Main Fender to the Birket, wanting to maintain the name Fender, they then changed Ford Brook to Fender, due to that part of the river becoming more significant after the construction of Wallasey pool.

I had resolved not to involve myself any further with this particular topic, believing it was only really going in circles. However, against my better judgement, I find it necessary to respond to some of the recent comments by Erainn.

I can't believe that in attempting to defend your arguments concerning the origins of local river names you now imply that peoples resistance to your ideas smacks of Welsh hostility. Over the course of the last few weeks you have argued that our local ancestors were either unimaginative or just plain stupid if they could not give a more original name to these waterways, and now you are suggesting that we are inherently anti-Welsh. This is absolute nonsense.

I think your ideas are very interesting Erainn but you seem totally immoveable in your own thinking. Just because some people find weaknesses in your argument you should not take it personally. Whilst I respect that you are obviously very intelligent I also think you should know better.

It is perfectly acceptable for people to disagree with each other intellectually but your own responses to this topic are becoming a bit more subjective. I would be genuinely delighted if you were proved to be right and we were able to put an earlier name to these waterways - it all only adds to a great understanding & appreciation of our local history. But if this topic is to continue (and be seen as a balanced and well reasoned argument) it should really steer clear of any pettiness.