Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request River Fender

aaah The printed word. I wish I had the education to use it to its full potential.Stick with it Geekus your worth your wieght in gold.I am still up for the field survey Erainn if it is still on.I was out last week with my Grandson found a few bits and pieces of interest.

The information that has come out of this discussion is just brilliant, I would like some definitions as above, but we are back to Erainn's question did these water courses/rivers of Wirral have names in the distant past, his theory as I see it, is if other area's did put name's watercourses/rivers then Wirral rivers should have had name's, I've no idea, I will have to go to the reference library and see If there's anything.

I still see we have lots to work out on the waterways even if it's just to see when they were named and if possible when the were fendered ,the Rubicon has me wondering if that had another name but that's for another time.

Oh dear, a straw-man argument, ah well as I'm feeling good with the world I shall attend to those bunions, which seem to have been trodden upon. Meanwhile, to soothe any inflamation perhaps it would better to stay on topic and avoid indulging in distorting comments made by fellow contributors.

In writing responses there has to be a certain assumption that a reader has the capacity to follow basic grammatical meaning, for example in the rush to take up a 'wet echo (anyone recall that local term?) against what you assert to be a slur on my part. I am happy to present this again, with some additional notes:

"Now, being from the Wirral myself I recall a certain 'hostility' towards anything Welsh, and I wonder, to what degree sub-conciously at least, such mild antipathy may explain the resistance to the notion of the Fender being named by British/Welsh peoples."

First point this is entirely speculative, it is not a charge. Secondly to anyone not riding a donkey with soap in their eyes, it is obviously invested with a degree of humour, I am puzzled how you missed that. Thirdly, you will note although in a speculative and humourous frame, the dilute and harmless nature of such attitude is emphasised by terms being placed in 'speech-marks' and clearly asserted as mild. T'was a naughty poke offered with a tongue firmly in cheek and I am at a loss as to how somone of your obviuous taste for comedic comment could miss that.

Now regarding your other curious outburst, at no stage have I boldly affirmed our collective Wirral ancestors as being lacking in either wit or creativity, what was aired, was the use of irony to emphasize a point, which insisted that the river was named after a coastal defence structure. It was offered, again with transparent humor and irony that this proposal required us to accept (what is clearly a nonsense) our ancestors were seemingly unable to name the river, for lack of imagination. Now for whatever reason you appear unable ot unwilling to read my comments in the context and meaning in which they are offered, which is disappointing as I value your insights and contributions, despite your obvious attachment to the notion of the river being named at some late stage in honour of a coastal embankment.

The discussions on this subject are clearly all within the arena of speculation and subjectivity and no one has thus far sought to assert themselves as the bearer of objectivity, there are too little facts for that. However there are scales of probability which can be examined and I for one have immensely enjoyed the information and contributions of all who have made this thread such an an informative and revealing one. I have made clear that I am presenting alternative perspectives on this subject and hold no particular model as supreme, what is emerging however is a number of valid questions and doubts concerning the idea that this river is named after a 16th or 19th Century coastal embankments. In my humble opinion there two other options that end themselves as being more credible, either it derives its name from a rendering of an early Welsh title for a controlled sprng/water. Or, as I have recently discussed, the name may be born from Germanic/Norse origin; the term 'Fen' derives also from the Old English fenn; related to Old High German fenna, Old Norse fen meaning either low, flat, swampy land; a bog or marsh or alternatively, 'mud'. In light of the wealth of information presented on the inundations of north Wirral and the bog-like nature of Wallasey Pool, a picture forms as to why that specific region may be called Fen. As I have proposed this may well be the origin, as opposed to defensive embankments, with 'Fender' is a variant/derivation of Der Fender, ie The Fen.

I remain more than happy to discuss the matter-in-hand, and welcome your contributions, however I shall not be investing any further time in addressing fallacious responses.

Well I am considering a trip up there at some stage and maybe we could indeed tread the sod

What's all the arguing about in this thread? Not been on it for a while and don't fancy reading 17 pages of it!!

Has anyone looked at this.....

Excuse the formatting, just cut and paste from The Cheshire Sheaf

THE WORD. ' FENDER' AS THE NAME OF A STREAM.

The word fender, meaning a ditch, or slowly
flowing stream, is, so far as the writer knows,
peculiar to Cheshire, and he would be very
grateful for any other record of the occurrence
of the word.
The earliest mention which he has found is in
a document dated 1st May, 1585, being a deed
between Myles Fells, of Bidston, and John
Roberts of the same, fixing the boundaries of
their adjacent holdings in the Hoose, now a part
of Hoylake. In the course of this deed it is
provided that " a good sufficient and able ditch
and fender shall be made between the said
North and South meadows." And further on, it
is agreed that either of the parties shall have
permission to cut a ditch " from the aforesaid
fender " to so-and-so. In this case the use of
the conjunction am?between "ditchand fender"
does not; make it clear that they mean the same
thing, but the later references will do this.
In a survey of the Manor of Bidston, in the
possession of Robert De Grey Vyner, Esquire,
dated 1665, the road running from Bidston to
Moreton, and which crosses the little stream
still known as 'The Fender,' is called 'Fender
Wa[y],' while in a Court Roll of the same
manor, dated early in this century, or the
end of last—the writer is now speaking from
memory—one of the tenants is summoned for
not keeping his fenders or ditches clear of mud.
The writer has also seen the word used later
than this, when speaking of the Wallasey Pool r
it was stated that under certain conditions of
the tide the water ' backed up in the fenders or
ditches.'
In all the above instances, with the possible
exception of the second (Bidston Survey, 1665),
the word is used as a common noun, but in
any map of the district the stream running
in a northerly direction between "Woodchurch
and Upton on the west, and Oxton and
Bidston on the east, is to-day called " The
Fender," and everyone who knows the countryside
about Hoylake, Moreton, and Wallasey also
calls the other branch of the same stream
MARCH, 1898. THE CHESHIRE SHEAF. 29
(which rises at the north of Grange Hill). "The
Fender," though the Ordnance Surveyors, for
some inscrutable reason, have invented the
name Birket for it. So here we have the
common noun erystalised into a proper one.
Any other examples of the occurrence of the
word or name will be welcomed by the writer.
Also any suggestion as to its derivation

Thanks for that Deano, a portion of that was put on,
Has this thread now been put to bed, its been very quiet.

everyone seemed to ignore the earlier name for the river that I referenced! Thought that might have solved some of the arguments!

Which was? (sorry - too lazy to look back through the thread...)

Still about trying to get something off the tinternet,I know someone has found this site, but is there anybody who knows War Office maps symbols, there is a map on this site with all the airfields on it from 1940/1950 and I can't find out what the symbols mean on the Wirral bit ,a square and a flag one.

http://visionofbritain.org.uk/index.jsp

I think 'argument' misrepresents what were healthy discussion and varying perspectives. As to conclusion, well take your pick,some hold fast to this stream being named after defensive structures, at the earliest it seems to the 16th Century, another view suggests that it may derive from earler times, either from the Germanic/Norse word 'Fenn, Fenna, Fen' meaning marsh, wetland. Or to a possible British/Welsh origin from a word meaning 'managed spring/water'.

It's been a wonderful exchange, some great information revealed and cogent points of view, although as noted earlier my actual area of interest, lies not in the sodden tidal stretches of the exposed coast, but further inland, along a course of the stream once seemingly called 'Ford Brook', only to be re-named as part of The Fender. Ah well, shall have to get back up there sometime

I've had a reply from Prof Steve Harding and have emailed him again to ask permission just to use the main body of his reply,I will put his answer in my words later, as I have an appointment ( well Iam under orders to take madam shopping),I can't do it now.

Email sent by me to Professor Steve Harding
We are trying to find out if/when the river Fender and the Birket were named and if they were named in Celtic or Viking times or even before that and I am wondering if you would have any information on the subject, knowing that your interest is the Viking era.


His Reply highly edited until he gives his permission to publish.

He says they are NOT viking names.

River names can go back even before the Celts, but they don't think it does for the Fender and the Birket, the names seem to be more recent.

The authority is J. M. Dodgson, "The Place Names of Cheshire" Part I.

The Birket was called the Birken and was considered to have come from Birkenhead.

Dodgson thinks the stream was called the Fender like the present one.

The Fender as now may come from the same name as the drainage or the bank that protects low lying land.

The present Fender seems to derive from the name referring to a drainage system or bank to stop flooding, which happened before the sea enbankments were built.

An earlier name is 1522 sheaf "The water of the Ayne" the meaning is unknown and maybe much older.
a bit of the pdf says:The form Ayne is supposed in Sheaf 4 (613) to be from the Welsh afon but this is unlikely it's etymology is unknown.

Prof Steve Harding has sent a copy to:
Dr.Paul Cavill of the English Place Name Society to see if he can add anything.

I will post his proper email, but that's my cut up version
there is an attachment a pdf of the page from the above book.

This is exactly what I wrote!

I referenced Dodgson a few weeks back!

If you look back at the page (forgot which one it was) where the payments for bridge repairs are tallied up you will see that the "Birken" is named there, not the "Birket". Just mentioning it because I didn't notice anyone picking it up but still referred to "Birket". Cracking subject anyway. Fenders are also the whicker baskets, or tyres, or bits of wood, which are slung over the side of a ship to stop it grating on the dock wall, making them defences also.