Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request River Fender

Dave, I am truly saddened if you feel that way and can assure you that my contributions here are based upon a genuine interest in Wirral and its history. The issue under discussion is not about personality but the information we have so far, my points on Stephen Harding's view simply raised reasonable questions.

A point of record, at no stage has any emphatic assertion been made that the River Fender derived its name from the Vikings, there exist some interesting possible associations with local British/Welsh populations at an early time. Also there is an alternative possibility that its be could be linked to the Saxon/Friesian word for marsh/wetland, Fen. Beyond that there's been no reasons on my part offered to attach Viking origins.

I hope you will not withdraw from the discussion, as I like others here value your contributions and as I made clear appeciate your inviting the views of Professor Harding.

Erainn, your either a good windup merchant or you have lost your Wirral senses ,you may be able to get a translator from this forum to help you.
The point I made was,the Viking era is a marker,it's a starter to help go back further from what the professor said,no one has mentioned Viking names,if their had been Viking names then your point would have been brought up a whatif ,if the Vikings named then surely then names would have been used further back,you even made an attempt to call the author of the book about where did he get his references from, the attachment from professor Harding has a pdf file 2 pages from the book he referenced 23/15, I did copy the pages and scanned them and cut the pages to the Fender and Birket one's,the book is copyright and deano has a copy and I was going to email him for the isbn and names and then try and get permission to use those bits here,but I think I will go and entertain myself on the political blogs,Guido Fawkes is a good place to shout and swear.

diggigdeeper
you will have to take it up with the late Sir Arthur Ignatius Conan Doyle 22 May 1859-7 July 1930 it is a "quote" word for word from Sherlock Holmes

Atque inter silvas Acadeum quarere verum.

Could the Romans have something to do with it ?
The latin verb defendo can mean protect or shelter as well as defend.
The Romans were in Chester (Deva) and came into the Wirral.
Could Fender be a version of what the Romans called it ??
If so who did it ?

Ah, quoting from Horace now; that takes me back a few years. (50 years actually).

In fact it's Academi quaerere, but close enough I guess.
To seek for truth in the groves of Academe for those without a knowledge of the classics.

Dave, it's not helpful to indulge in ad hominem, does not advance the discussion and is of course utterly irrelevant to the subject in hand.

I have outlined previously my points on Stephen Harding's offering and do not feel it necessary to repeat them. By all means share any further information from the sources you mentioned, it will be genuinely appreciated. If they, like the extracts already discussed, are simply embellished opinions, then as such they are no more convincing models than the ones proposed thus far.

...seems like mine aren't the only toes you've been treading on Erainn.

The fact is, it can sometimes be difficult for people to judge the true tone of comments on forums such as these, and it doesn't really help matters when any of us start using complicated language and clever arguments.

Davew3 made an excellent contribution and went to a lot of trouble to contact Professor Harding so we could all benefit from his opinions. If I wasn't so busy jousting with 'strawmen' I'm sure I could think of a pithier retort to your posting. All I can really say is that you did seem somewhat dismissive, and in dismissing the professor's comments it appeared as if you were dismissing davew3's efforts. I'm sure, however, that that wasn't your intention.

As an academic, I'd like to propose that good old plain English is the best medium for discussion on wiki sites.....just my two pence worth.

Please can you try to refrain from personalizing the discussion, I appreciate that misrepresentation and fallacy maybe a particular specialism, but it in no way serves the general discussion. In case your eagerness to join the supposed 'fray' has clouded your field of vision permit me to remind you that this thread is about the River Fender [i]not the personality of contributors[/i].

I am not going to dignify some of the more negative comments made with a reply,suffice to say that any offerings on my part should be evaluated in terms of content, reason, information on a fair and mature basis. In that context I stand by my observations on Stephen Harding's remarks, and add this. I do not subscribe to a school of tugged forelock that asserts simply because a person holds a Doctorate in one discpline it qualifies them as infallible on other areas. I'm sure that Professor Harding (whose specialism I understand is within one of the Sciences) has a deep interest and knowledge of Scandinavian Wirral, that in itself does not elevate his comments on the Fender; which were in themselves cautious conjecture, as opposed to cold fact, as any more likely than other possible origins.

I will also request you to note that due appreciation and acknowledgement to Dave was given in my comments for his invitation to the Professor. So let's have none of this misrepresentation, or playing the agent provocateur. I note your habit of setting up straw-men, which again is not progressing the actual subject being discussed, along with a somewhat underhand attempt to conflate my reasonable questions on the Professor's comments with some supposed ingratitude towards Dave's efforts. That wholly misrepresents my comment and motivation, which I am confident you were were aware of in drafting your remarks.

I'm riding off into the sunset on my donkey as you speak Erainn!

There is genuinely a funny side to all of this, you know, but I'm finding it rather difficult to see what with all that soap in my eyes.

I'd blame bert1 for the arguments caused by the above question.
Still it's been quite interesting even though we've been going around in circles and are back where we started - non the wiser.

Not entirely, as at the begining the word was simply that the river was named after a flood defence structure, now there are alternative origins to consider.

I was following this thread and then lost touch a little. Trying to push it back on topic, have I missed any post where the earlest references to the names came from?

I have seen an old map (1800?) where the present day Fender is called "The Ford Brook" and the present day Birket is called "The Main Fender". There is also the Arrow Brook more or less where it is today and the Greasby Brook.

here's another one to throw in to the mix - Gill Brook from 1825 map
seems to have gone off later maps

Thought we had a Toad Hall at first glance

I guess this is where Gill Brook entered the Wallasey Pool.