Ok you going to have to bare with me on this one coz am not even sure what am asking here. Good start huh?
Here goes, I went for a walk round Greasby tuther day and eventualy ended up on the old site of RAF West Kirby. Now this may not be urban exploring to you but it felt quite surreal walking along the old road network which made up the old barracks. After walking round quite a bit trying to find anything else of interest i notice some digging work that was goin on in a nearby field, now when I say diggin i mean heavy machinery digging almost like a quarry, so this got me thinking, what the hell is under that field that someone might be digging for? I didnt have a camera but i am sure if you drive along saughall massie road you can see the massive equipment they got there. So when i got home i remembered the overlay i had for google earth and low and behold there was a building right on the site they are excavating i mean the exact place. Coincidence??....heres some pics to go with this.
Hi Robbo, might do next time am on the Wirral....will pm you on that one though as i don't think your allowed to organise UE's on forums?? Just a heads up!
Heres another picture though but this its an old one as there is more earth moving equipment there now.
Notice the bank of earth on the right which is blocking the work from the road??
Dont get excited people, especially you Robbo!!! Its not digging, being used as a dumping ground for the likes of rubble and tarmac from local construction, then being screened (graded) and crushed into hardcore for further use!! Sorry to dampen your spirits!! BUT......There ARE underground shelters there!!! I used to do a lot of shooting there many years ago, and before the ground was landscaped, there where still the concrete bases of the buildings and uncovered hatches in the fields of underground bunkers! Nothing special in te ones i went into, just like air raid shelters with some bunks in, mostly under water. Well filled in by now tho!
I might pop along to this sometime, if I get the time, and take some photo's.
Cheers for the heads up, its a strange one, I wonder if any permission was required for the digging, as it may well have been lodged with the council...
BUT......There ARE underground shelters there!!! I used to do a lot of shooting there many years ago, and before the ground was landscaped, there where still the concrete bases of the buildings and uncovered hatches in the fields of underground bunkers! Nothing special in te ones i went into, just like air raid shelters with some bunks in, mostly under water. Well filled in by now tho!
Dont think you will find much bud, well filled in, some had rubble in them when i was last down there! (20yrs ago!!) The bases of the buildings were still there tho, used to fly remote planes off them! There is a public footpath thru the base as well, but watch out as the fields are mainly grazing and contain cows, also the owner is in the farm just at the junction on the main road, so you are quite visible!! RAF West Kirby was mainly a training base, radios etc. Had its own rifle range tho! would bee good to go back round there, give us a PM when your thinking mate!
Dont think you will find much bud, well filled in, some had rubble in them when i was last down there! (20yrs ago!!) The bases of the buildings were still there tho, used to fly remote planes off them! There is a public footpath thru the base as well, but watch out as the fields are mainly grazing and contain cows, also the owner is in the farm just at the junction on the main road, so you are quite visible!! RAF West Kirby was mainly a training base, radios etc. Had its own rifle range tho! would bee good to go back round there, give us a PM when your thinking mate!
It was a basic training place for national servicemen plus a transit camp in during the war for airmen waiting to be shipped out from Liverpool overseas. I doubt very much if any radio training was done there and any forces base usually had some kind of 25 metre range.
You know something Chris, it was always a 25 metre range when I was in and that was 72-78. I don't know why because I was taught feet and inches, pounds and ounces etc.
Don't forget at the time I was firing 7.62mm and 9mm rounds not .303 or whatever. Get very complicated this doesn't it?
My kids look at me soft if I say something like "you need two foot of three be two planed". Might be the planed bit that baffles them though?
Ah, sorry; I hadn't realised you were so young. In my day it was .303. I shot for Bomber Command at Bisley from 1957-60, at ranges from 100 yards to 1200 yards. Admittedly the Sten did use 9mm. With regard to wood, I remember a notice at my local merchants "All timber now sold in metric feet", although for a long time, hardwood was dimensioned in Imperial, but sold in metric length.
Exactly the same place as the other photo's. There is a memorial there now. Hard to believe there was so much on that site. The old married quarters are still there at the other end of pump lane but owned privately now. Note that the roads are all named after RAF bases.
The officers quarters where on the corner between Ennisdale drive, Frankby Rd and Blackhorse hill. I seem to have a very vague memory that after all the buildings were demolished the range was still there and there was the remains of a cockpit, Spitty or Hurricane probably for training, walked all over them fields as a kid.
"In my day it was .303. I shot for Bomber Command at Bisley from 1957-60, at ranges from 100 yards to 1200 yards. Admittedly the Sten did use 9mm." Yes Chris, you are right, you probably used the MK4 (maybe not the SMLE) or the Bren!(Doubt if you used the Lewis.) The Sten couldnt hit a barn door at 10 paces tho, and was only any good at close quarter scatter!!! Too inaccurate fire from a mass produced weapon!! I collect military firearms and have all 3!
I used the Bren but not the Bren if you know what I mean. It was later given all kinds of mods especially the barrel and became the LMG. Good accurate weapon.
Bit too young for the sten but had an SMG which could hit a barn door but what kind of stopping power I don't know and thankfully never had to find out.
I got thirty out of thirty in a competition once but they said it was only 29. I insisted the round must have gone through the big hole I had made in the target as I was unlikely to have missed one. Never gave me it the barstewards.
In basic training I once asked if it was true that a 9mm round from an SMG wouldn't penetrate a wet blanket? I was asked if I would like to hold the blanket to see if it was true, I declined
OK, since we're on the subject, I started shooting when at school; .22 calibre, SMLE with Morris tubing & .303" on Altcar ranges, between Liverpool & Southport. When in the RAF, shot BSA Martini action, .22" & SMLE .303 both SRA (service rifle class A), which was totally unmodified service rifle, & SRB (class B, slings & Parker Hale 5c.aperture sights). Also the Bren (.303)& Sten (9mm) which were both highly inaccurate but fun. As a civvy, until Dunblane, I shot mostly hanguns. I had a S&W model 28 in .357 magnum, a S&W model 29 with a 10 5/8" barrel in .44 magnum (Dirty Harry's weapon, but his was the 8 1/2" barrel), a Ruger in .45 Long Colt calibre & a Browning 9mm. Until recently I've been shooting bench rest rifle; 6mm PPC calibre, in which discipline you needed to be shooting groups of 1/10" at 100 yards to be any good. For all these, I loaded my own ammunition, since the load needs to be tuned to the individual weapon. I'm not shooting at present, but I have a slot on my firearms certificate for a 7.62mm or .308" (same calibre) rifle, so maybe I'll start again. I wasn't aware that a 9mm round wouldn't penetrate a wet blanket, but I wouldn't like to risk it.
Remind me not to mess with Chris. I must take you to task on one thing you said and that was the Bren was highly inaccurate? I always found the LMG very accurate and old soldiers said the same of the Bren. In fact it was too accurate at times hence the introduction of the GPMG (Gimpy) to spread the rounds a bit more?
The Bren wwas actually replaced by the GPMG as it was too acurate. These weapons are both light support weapons so therefore a wider kill zone was needed.Some units of the royal marines still used the Bren up until recently .The gpmg was also developed into a sustained fire role which believe me is awesome and lethal it can hit a target up to 1km away as long as you have the right grid reference.
It all makes perfect sense expressed in dollars and cents ,pound shillings and pence
OK, guys, I guess I should have said I was inaccurate with the Bren! It's just that after a well fettled SMLE with a properly floated barrel, it was always a disappointment.
I live on the estate commonly known as the RAF houses just by what was RAF West Kirby... last year we had a large part of the garden removed to level it off... and when we were removing the earth, there were loads of old cartridge cases...I will go out and dig one up a bit later and post a pic.. maybe someone could tell me what they were from...
99% chance they will be .303, difference is between the Rifle round and the Machine gun round! Nice weapon the Lee Enfield, i have an SMLE and a MK4, all nice date stamped. I also have a Bren (.303) and 9mm Sten (`T` stock) I have a German K98 Mauser, ww2 dated and used to own an M16 converted to fire .22!!! Heavily into collecting militeria, have done since i was 6, over 30yrs ago now!
I live on the estate commonly known as the RAF houses just by what was RAF West Kirby... last year we had a large part of the garden removed to level it off... and when we were removing the earth, there were loads of old cartridge cases...I will go out and dig one up a bit later and post a pic.. maybe someone could tell me what they were from...
Someone has slipped up. Supposed to be collected for the scrap
"I have no live rounds or empty cases in my possession, SIR!"
Yeah, nice smooth actiion, not as "clunky" as the Enfield! I like the .303 tho cause i have LARGE hands and the woodwork is chunkier, i can get a better hold and it sits nicely for me! Ive seen a few rebored to the 7.62, NATO round, commonly used in the Kalashnikov AK47. Ive seen the Lee Enfield also converted over and even to 10 guage, shotgun!
I have had 2 Lee Enfields, both bored out to .410. Not a brilliant range but enough to stop incoming crows at lambing time!
Had to have the mag. welded up and a certificate to prove it, so it couldn't pop another round in when you pull the bolt back. It never occurred to the numpties that drew up these regulations that a shotgun cartridge, by nature of its non-tapered nose, will not go into the breech anyway ! Of course THEY know best (?)
The last one was dated 1943, so presume the "long" version ??
The last one was dated 1943, so presume the "long" version ??
That would be a SMLE No.4 Mk.1 (as opposed to SMLE No.1 Mk.III & earlier). They were what we used in competition in the RAF. The most obvious difference was that the barrel stuck out a couple of inches beyond the furniture, whereas the earlier ones were virtually flush. I've never seen one converted to shotgun; I suspect it felt a bit unwieldy. Glad to know it did the job though.
I live on the estate commonly known as the RAF houses just by what was RAF West Kirby... last year we had a large part of the garden removed to level it off... and when we were removing the earth, there were loads of old cartridge cases...I will go out and dig one up a bit later and post a pic.. maybe someone could tell me what they were from...
Sorry to change the subject completely on this post but just bought a little book on ebay about the RAF base and it has a brilliant description of Wirral and surrounding areas .
I had a 3 hour rummage around RAF West Kirby yesterday. You really have to walk round the place to take in the size - it is/was massive.
In between all the roadways (which have mostly been left in place), the ground has been completely scraped clean at some time, the furrows of the bulldozers are still clearly visible around all the areas in the woodland. Most of the woodland consists of young birch type trees (see later in post).
Only in one corner of the site (western edge of woods in northern corner) is there any remnants that I found, this is like a concrete squarish tank, about 18ft square, I have seen these before at other sites, I assume it is either a bund (to contain oil leaks in an oil store) or a cess pit, or less possibly a EWS (emergency water supply). Just by this was also part of a brick building base. Other than that corner, I found less than ten bricks on the whole site - it has been very thoroughly sterilised.
Three hours is not sufficient time to very thoroughly search this site, plus for many areas even I (this goes totally against the grain) would need some protective wear against brambles and hawthorn. But it doesn't take long to take in how thoroughly most of the site has been cleared. Also a swathe of more recent clearance has taken place to put pylons in. I have not checked the woods south of the stuff I found (above) - I ran out of time and was getting a bit physically tired - a fall in shoulder high nettles and brambles when solo is not for the faint hearted like me!
If anyone wants to do searching of areas like this - a few hints. 1. Dominant quantities of young birch trees seem to be indicative that ground has been thorughly scraped/sterilised - this occurs around bromborough, eastham, larton and bidston. 2. Look for older estalished trees such as beech or oaks - this has paid of many times, the bulldozers miss these areas out and leave things behind. 3. Best areas seem to be where there is a natural mix of plants - namely nettles, hawthorn, brambles, ground clearings (because of tree cover) and ivy. This shows the area has had minimal man-interference and so has not been thoroughly cleared. 4. Trees fallen over for no apparent reason - sometimes indicates there is concrete bases underneath, tree couldn't root properly and falls over. Sometimes if brick bases the trees pull bricks out the ground when they fall - have a good look at fallen trees at the root end. 5. FLAT wet areas but only a couple of inches sinkage - often concrete bases underneath - no drainage. 6. Furrows - usually at 3 foot or 6 foot spacing - indicate heavy bulldozing.
Couple of pictures of concrete structure later - if you actually read this far.
Last visit to RAF West Kirby, I missed a promising section of the site out, because I was getting tired and couldn't find a way into the area I wanted, because of a 30 foot section of 6 foot nettles with the usual intermix of brambles.
Yesterday I took the bull by the horns as I had nettle-sting withdrawl over the previous 48 hours.
As I guessed I found a few remnants of buildings in this section, both of the main ones look particularly interesting. The rest are just remnants of building bases, so I won't put them up.
I would be interested if anyone has any ideas what the second structure is, as can be seen, it has rounded coping stones round it and is a couple of feet tall. It may have a hole in the top but I didn't have any kit with me to investigate.
Last edited by diggingdeeper; 16th Jun 200910:16pm. Reason: Stamped
I posted that as a kid i used to play in the undertground shelters there, still had bunk beds in etc! They had a raised area like that around the entrances and a manhole cover top with steel rungs going down "just like a drain!" Possibly one of these mate, the ones i went into where in the main fields and filled many years ago and the old building bases dug up. I used to fly remote planes off the bases, ideal for taxying off on!! Give me a shout and will come out for a mooch with you, love to go back there and look around!
A very interesting post which has triggered a few memories! A full size runway was built using pavers approximately 3ft x 2ft x 4 inches thick on this site however NOT for the use of aircraft rather a bit of propaganda! After the camp closed, all the pavers were sold to a local farmer for 3d each (3 old pence)I bought a dozen of these in the late 70's for 75p each--not a bad profit for storing in a disused field.
@mike_scott - I have heard about a runway before - was the runway built a few fields away posibly (maybe as a decoy?), because it doesn't appear on maps or aerial photographs of the RAF site.
@hoseman - apart from the roads/paths, there are only the three structures left - I have now searched the whole site. Certainly love to go round with you, I am busy later today but one evening this week would be good.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
From what I can remember, the runway was built as you suggest as a decoy and would not sustain much more than a Landrover or such. The runway I think was more towards Frankby Road rather than the RAF site proper. It could be seen from Pump Lane when the hedges were devoid of foliage.
I would have to ask Mike, how did this land there, i believe taken at RAF West Kirby.
I was looking at that wondering today. Either RAF West Kirby personnel travelled to somewhere else for the photo, or the aircraft (liberator?) was kit formed to RAF West Kirby for the event - unlikely but not totally unheard of, more likely the former though.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
This may be a little off topic, but adjacent to the old RAF runway were several guard posts similar if not the Williams Turret. Many of these wre dotted around Hoylake, Greasby, Meols and I recall one situated in Carr Lane (Meols to Moreton) before the manned railway crossing, local kids used to catch tadpoles as it was always half full of water.
Found out something that has puzzled me, I have found structures like this picture at most RAF sites I have been to. They are called "Static Water Pools" and were an open water storage for use with firefighting and such like.
Very similar structures were also put around fuel and oil supplies as a bund - to capture leaks etc.
A couple of similar tanks situated in Hoylake, 1 next to the Kingsway Cinema and 1 opposite the side of the Old Parish Hall in the grove. They would have had EWS on the side (Emergency Water Supply)
The decoy field is half a mile from the nearest corner of RAF West Kirby, its not that close. That's assuming the decoy has the correct NGR, quite a few other are over quarter of a mile wrong!
I tried to go down that road (Carr Lane) the other day but there were a load of cars and people parked in it.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Just type in "Saughall Massie Road" in google maps, where google pinpoints the road "red A pinpoint", the entrance to RAF West Kirby is the next junction to the left (west) of the pinpoint. If you look closely at the map you can still see the inprint of the demolished buildings. Sure you could make you way there with the map bearings.
Fascinating. Haven't walked in the woods myself, but friends tell me there's a good growth of wild orchids somewhere in there - would like to see them flowering. I had my first taste of driving on the old camp roadways back in the 60s - but my Dad wasn't very clear about telling me the relationship between the accelerator and the clutch! Ouch.
My Dad was Adjutant at RAF West Kirby in the later '40s. We were living in Brynmoss Avenue Wallasey at the time and he used to com home quite often, not always officially as I believe it. In the early '60s I used to drive my Willys Jeep on the old roads in the station. All the huts were there at that time as the station had not long shut. It's really odd to stand on the edge of the parade ground theses days and to think of all the misery that must have resulted from arrival there (all "green" conscripts first time from home). Now its all green and hard to believe it was so full of people.
It was probably not too bad, considering what it was there for. However I remember well how miserable I was when I first left home, and also my Son and Nephew and Niece when they first left home to the Forces. My Dad always used to talk of the Conscripts as they were first 'marched' from West Kirby Railway Station to RAF West Kirby.It was not enjoyable, many were totally unused to the darkness and the countryside. However I am not saying that conscription was a bad thing, for the country, for youth training or for unemployment.
Were conscripts really marched from West Kirby station? Surely Meols was the nearest station. I was never there myself; I did my basic training at R.A.F. Bridgnorth in 1956.
If recruits were marched from a station, how would they have got there at the same time, assuming they were from all over the country, train connections etc.? Would it not have been easier to report to camp on a certain day, perhaps Chris can remember how he got to RAF Bridgenorth.
Is it certain a plane never landed at West Kirby? according to the website the pic above was taken at West Kirby, would they take a plane in kit form and assemble, for what reason?
God help us, Come yourself, Don't send Jesus, This is no place for children.
oops, totally wrong about Meols then Bert; when I joined in 1956, the first place you went to was Cardington in Bedfordshire. There, you were sworn in & kitted out. There were probably about 20 of us. After a couple of days there, we were allocated to our basic training camps & given rail warrants. We were sent to different camps; I think 3 of us went to Bridgnorth. The final leg of the journey was from Kidderminster along what is now the Severn Valley Railway. We were collected from the station by coach. The camp was about a mile from the station.
Thanks Chris, similar to what i was thinking, that way they could all end up at the station at the same time, coming from a holding camp, all sent to their destinations collectively.
God help us, Come yourself, Don't send Jesus, This is no place for children.
Is it certain a plane never landed at West Kirby? according to the website the pic above was taken at West Kirby, would they take a plane in kit form and assemble, for what reason?
There was nowhere in north Wirral to land anything like that. It could have been taken at RAF Hooton, RAF Little Sutton (unlikely) RAF Sealand or one of many of the other bases on the other side of the mersey..
Planes were transported in kit form, but it would be quite an undertaking to get that to RAF West Kirby.
The gate-guardian at RAF West Kirby was a Spitfire.
One mistake that has sometimes occurred is assuming RAF Newton is the same place as RAF West Kirby due to the proximity to the Wirral Newton.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
May well be Chris, done a good job of it, if it is. The main body of men pic must have been take down at the river, to the left is what appears to be two small boats in the river.
God help us, Come yourself, Don't send Jesus, This is no place for children.
I think that most arrived at Meols from reading various articles on it. There is an RAF West Kirby Assn website if you google and there are some photo's on that.
I can never remember the name of the road but it is the one that is on the left as you drive towards Hoylake just before you get to Meols station. Down there and there is a small road off to the right that would have taken you directly to the front gate.
I was talking to a man who was a drill sergeant there and he said quite a few young men were run over and killed whilst walking along that lane in the dark. Usually after they had had a few. He said they had a name for them which was not very nice but it was a way of dealing with it I suppose. Don't ask me what it was because I can't remember what he said.
I can never remember the name of the road but it is the one that is on the left as you drive towards Hoylake just before you get to Meols station. Down there and there is a small road off to the right that would have taken you directly to the front gate.
Heron Road or 'the lanes' as its simply known locally. If you turn right down that narrower lane called Oldfeild lane it comes out right in front of where the entrance was.
Is it certain a plane never landed at West Kirby? according to the website the pic above was taken at West Kirby, would they take a plane in kit form and assemble, for what reason?
There was nowhere in north Wirral to land anything like that. It could have been taken at RAF Hooton, RAF Little Sutton (unlikely) RAF Sealand or one of many of the other bases on the other side of the mersey..
Planes were transported in kit form, but it would be quite an undertaking to get that to RAF West Kirby.
The gate-guardian at RAF West Kirby was a Spitfire.
RAF Newton was over near Newark in Lincolnshire. Ended up as a RAFP Training Camp and sort of RAFP HQ. I did my RAF training at Swinderby which was near there, that was in 1976. Planes not needed as these places were used for square bashing, learning domestics so you could look after yourself and your kit. Then it was off to Trade Training at various establishments. The Navy was the same, basics at Ganges Annexe but just over the road for basic Trade Training, Radio Ops did the whole course there but Stokers and Sailors etc went to other camps after a few months. Everything is getting more centralised now, even Cranwell is doing some SNCO aircrew training whereas it was always Officers there before. Complicated stuff.
One mistake that has sometimes occurred is assuming RAF Newton is the same place as RAF West Kirby due to the proximity to the Wirral Newton.
As I remember it there were underground shelter buildings if you passed the gate in the direction of West Kirby. The road curves downhill to the right. The entrances were over the hedge about 50yds from the hedge. This was where the xcavations were taking place about eight? years ago.
They came on a train, that is how they arrived at the same time. It was most certainly West Kirby in his time because he used to tell us about each and every time we cycled up Black Horse Hill from Wallasey to my Grans in West Kirby. This was in the late '40s and early 50s because my sister, who was born in '45 was in a chair on the back of my Dads Bike (the whole seat fell off once on the cinder bath by the railway line and no-one noticed for 1/4 mile!)
I'm still trying to figure out what aircraft it is, I thought it was a DC3-Dakota but they never had a four-blade prop. Everything else looks right, twin engined, low-wing, squarish cockpit windows, slight dome front.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I'm still trying to figure out what aircraft it is, I thought it was a DC3-Dakota but they never had a four-blade prop. Everything else looks right, twin engined, low-wing, squarish cockpit windows, slight dome front.
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Bert; when I joined in 1956, the first place you went to was Cardington in Bedfordshire. There, you were sworn in & kitted out. There were probably about 20 of us. After a couple of days there, we were allocated to our basic training camps & given rail warrants. We were sent to different camps; I think 3 of us went to Bridgnorth. The final leg of the journey was from Kidderminster along what is now the Severn Valley Railway. We were collected from the station by coach. The camp was about a mile from the station. 
