Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past Wirral History SHAME ON YOU, WIRRAL COUNCIL

This 1 looks good

chriskay well dun can u remember if the tunnels had diffrent levels in them and if we say u was on ground leval did thay go up or down ?

excellent thread, as said before maybe we should start a petition again !

Brilliant pics.

We went to these tunnels in the Summer. They were fascinating!

But I was taken with the fact of how good would the Wirral tunnels be if they were opened to the public as they are so much more extensive etc.
I talked to the guide at Stockport and she never knew that Wirral had any tunnels..she seemed surprised as she said she thought she knew of most of the tunnel sites in the country..but not Wirral??

I told her the little I knew about them saying how they were so large and well planned out and she agreed they would be very worthwhile opening up.

But as said..tell that to our council.

Ok money would have to be spent..but surely the cost would be met in time by the interest generated!
The guide at Stockport said that they had increasing numbers of visitors and held private tours at night for limited numbers to explore tunnels that hadnt been fully opened up yet. They also have on going visits from schools etc ...so they make revenue..other wise they wouldnt be open!

Such a crying shame..Liverpool has tunnels..other places have tunnels and our council seems to think that ours would not be worth the time effort and money.....!!

@vango; there's a plan of the tunnels & a description, via links, on the first post. Looking at the plan, these tunnels weren't built on a square grid pattern like Tranmere & Bidston. They are all on one level with no noticeable slope. If anyone organises a group visit, I'd come along; it's less than an hour by train for me.

Cheers, Chris.

Really nice photies Chris. The problem with our tunnels is the asbestos - it was almost certainly used at tranmere and probably used at bidston. Most tunnels that are open are either not lines, lined with brick or built before asbestos as used extensively.

Current thinking on asbestos is eading towards sealing it instead of trying to remove it, unfortunately if the linings on tunnels are sealed then moisture won't evaporate and the lining may drop off exposing unsealed asbestos etc. not suitable for public access. Asbestos removal doesn't come cheap.

The council may not be mentioning the asbestos because of the claims that may be made from workers and users of the tunnels, not to mention kids that played in them when they weren't adequately blocked off. This may be why the council is generally very quiet about anything to do with these tunnels.

The answer is to have friends of the tunnels, the Williamson group did it, why can't the Wirral?- preferably one group to cover both Tranmere and Bidston, this increases the chances of success. Simon Petris did try effectively as a pressure group, but I think you need to raise initial capital to advertise and premote the tunnels to increase the income to the levels needed.

The tunnels would be a very suitable memorial to remind of the horrors of war to families at home, not just the soldiers on the front line - I am sure a concertd attempt at this time whilst there are many people with living memory of the war(s)would support this. By the next generation it could be too late.

And sorry, no, I am not volounteering, I haven't got the time and I sincerely apologise to Simon Petris for never getting round to joing his group, I wish I had!

Actually, the asbestos, in the form of corrugated asbestos cement sheets which was used as roofing in places at Tranmere is not really a problem; just that the word asbestos sets off alarm bells. Asbestos cement sheeting is remarkably stable unless you start to cut it without precautions. I know that Simon Petris started (or was involved with) the Friends of Tranmere Tunnels, but I think the group faded away, which is a shame. (I'd be glad to be proved wrong). If I lived locally I'd certainly try to persuade the council to do something, but the fact that I'm not local works against me.

That would be great news Chris, I was on the understanding that an asbestos mix render was to be used in places, as this would be hand plastered it would be nowhere near as safe as sheeting. As it is probably white asbestos it is low-ish risk, but my experience of (pre-war) asbestos sheeting is that it does become powdery but this would just be a case of using a seal - if it is just sheeting.

I think it is time the profile is raised again, it would be interesting to see the financial accounts of other similar tunnel groups to asses and more importantly show the viability.

Both of the Friends of Tranmere tunnels sites have gone, I don't know if Simon left the area or just got fed up with getting nowhere.

Having got rid of the Historic Ships - that would have been part of what could have been a fantastic tour of the Wirral.

Sorry to throw a large spanner (Imperial - NOT metric!) in the works at this point, but I doubt very much indeed that asbestos compound type sheeting was ever used at Tranmere. Can't speak for Bidston as I only (very) briefly stuck my head in there many years ago and cannot remember the roofing.

The curved corrugated sheets at Tranmere were steel. This bold statement is made by my memory and photographs. Looking at the recent pictures, some look like new, some are 99% rust. All depended on who did the galvanising. I'm sure when fitting out the tunnels, they would use a material that would not shatter if a lump of rock, maybe loosened by "trimming" fell onto the "outside" of the sheets. Asbestos sheets have the tensile strength of soggy Weetabix ! There seemed to be quite a bit of overbreak in the driving of the tunnels ie. generous gap twixt rock and lining, be it the brick walls or "ceilings".

Can't vouch for ALL of Tranmere, but certainly the bits we roamed around all those years ago were metal sheeted, not compressed snuff !

The presence of asbestos is guaranteed to put the kiss of death on any proposed scheme. Wirral Borough Council's total rejection of the re-opening pivots largely on this wonderful, and VERY convenient mega-scare!

Maybe somewhere (Archive visit Chris !) there are buried away, the specification docs. issued to the council by the War Ministry ? It would NOT of course be in the Council's interest to produce these IF there is no asbestos sheets down there ! Maybe somethink to mull over ??

Ok, folks, I'm guilty of using second-hand info. I have no direct evidence of the use of corrugated asbestos, only what I'd heard.
diggingdeeper; can you say what your source is for the asbestos render? It may lead to further info.
Pinzgauer; you make a valid point about the unsuitability of asbestos sheeting (although it would be shear strength which was the critical factor). On my previous visits to the archives, it would appear thy haven't much on the tunnels, but it may just be a matter of asking the right questions. Perhaps someone local could go & have a nose around in the archives. I wonder if the War Ministry would have laid down a spec. or whether it would be done at a local level. Interesting that the Stockport tunnels don't seem to have been roofed at all, which makes me think there was no national standard.
On a completely different tack, I wonder if we could interest the Time Team in an exploration of both sets of tunnels? If so, what would be the best approach? They could use the experience of Stockport as a reference.

Cheers, Chris.

"A short section has been roofed as an experiment with asbestos to test its wearing capacity"

Quote of a quote ...

Page 25 of Birkenhead at War 1939-45 quoting "A newspaper of the time"

I cannot see a way that inflexible asbestos sheet could be mounted onto the roof without an undue amount of additional work (you would have to hold the roof up then finish building the side walls) and hence have always assumed it was a render they had tried as opposed to sheeting.

They would have no reason to replace steel sheets with asbestos sheets but if they wanted to try a render that's when they would swop to asbestos. As can be seen on the pictures, the steel sheets being flexible can be popped in and out.

All photo's and descriptions I have seen have shown/stated corrugated steel roof, the asbestos might even have been an infill.

I am not ruling out that the asbestos may be in sheets - just doesn't seem to make much sense if they are.

For those that haven't come across asbestos sheets, if you imagine a plasterboard panel but compressed to about 3mm thick but still have the strength to self support a 3 metre long panel, then you have the idea - unfortunately it is brittle - a normal kick of a football could shatter them. (sorry to all our imperial fiends out there, most members here are probably metric - spit)

Looking at the pictures of Bidston tunnels (which was started at least 6 months later than tranmere) I am more concerned about the ceilings there, was an experiment at tranmere using render successful and used there?

wooooowww cool

As far as I can tell from most of the walls and ceilings at bidston, most of it looks like it's direct chiseled to the rock and there seems to be little evidence of any form of smooth render. Surely if a render had been used it would be thick enough to remove any or even most evidence of chisel or tool marks on the walls and ceilings?

In fact the tunnels there remind me much more of the works underneath dover castle than anything else I've ever seen - and that's the older sections.

(had a private tour of those withe curator )

Can't tell colours/textures very well on photos but this is one of the bidston pictures that led me to think that the roof had been rendered. The forground roof looks rendered, the further roof looks like full finished concrete/cement.

BTW I have no expertise in any of this, I am just passing some thoughts etc

If it is render I can't imagine it being applied so roughly, or be shot through with what looks like iron oxide??



The roughness of it reminds me of the chiselled stuff I saw in Dover see.