Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions

Thanks again for any possible thoughts on these random points!

Welsh stuff:

1. One of the broader definitions of the geographical Wirral Peninsula (e.g. mentioned on Wikipedia) is that it's technically an island partly bounded by the River Dee and the Shropshire Union Canal. If this is the case, then is part of the peninsula Welsh?
For example, Shotwick Lake, Garden City, Deeside industrial estate, Hawarden Bridge station, RAF Sealand etc.. would all count as part of the geographical Wirral Peninsula under this definition (they are all north of the Dee), but all are in Flintshire. I think this anomaly may exist because the River Dee was rerouted via the 18th century canal, yet the English-Welsh border was never changed.

2. Does anyone know why Birkenhead was chosen for the 1917 Eisteddfodd? This seems an unlikely thing to happen nowadays. Despite the fact that Wirral has a large proportion of Welsh descent, it seems from a modern perspective unusual that a place in England was chosen.
It's certainly an interesting part of Birkenhead history, but I've just always wondered how it came about. (I also noticed the CROESO sign on Birkenhead market in recent times, as it apparently attracts quite a few Welsh speakers)

3. We know that Birkenhead in Welsh is called "Penbedw" which means essentially the same thing in both languages. Do other towns/villages on the Wirral also have Welsh names?

More M53 stuff:

4. The M531 became part of the main M53 because the original M53 route into Wales, south of J5 was scrapped. Does anyone know why it was scrapped as it seems like it would have been very useful. I'm guessing it was cost, but it seems to me that linking Merseyside with North Wales directly with a motorway would've been economically beneficial. Also, in lieu of the above, the M53 now eventually becomes the A55, south Chester bypass. I do wonder why this motorway-like road remains the A55 and does not become a motorway standard extension of the M53, simply renamed to the M53?
By the way I haven't driven a car for ten years (which is probably why I don't know the answer), but I'm just interested in transport.

5. The "stub bridge" that existed near J5 of the M53 (due to the above cancelled extension) extended onto a field near Hooton.
I think there is just a field there now with no stub as it was demolised a few years back. According to maps like Google Earth, that part of the field where the stub used to be is in Merseyside, but the rest of the same field is in Cheshire. Is there any logical reason why a farmer's field in Cheshire would have a rectangular section of Merseyside encroaching into it? Obviously caused by the mortoway construction project, but I don't know why the border has to trace around the edge of the structure. (This is a silly one I know, but I find it interesting in a bizarre way!)

6. Was it true that a barrage across to the Point of Ayr was proposed, or a tunnel under the Dee in the original full M53 plans?

Fatalities

7. When I was younger, I heard that many years ago (perhaps the 50s or 60s, but I'm not sure), a well-known American celebrity/movie star was killed in a car crash on Hoylake Road, Bidston en route to a golf match at the Royal Liverpool golf course. Does anyone know if this is true, and if so, who was it?

8. I also heard that the rail bridge on the Bidston-Wrexham line was originally lower height where it crosses over Woodchurch Road (perhaps before the road was lowered?) As a result, an open-top bus carrying boy scouts to an event in Arrowe Park mistakenly went under the bridge and some of them were fatally injured. I've never managed to verify this story, is there any shred of truth in it?

Transport-related

9. Did anyone here ever travel on direct rail services from Birkenhead Woodside to London Paddington (or vice-versa)? If so, how long did the journey take, and how frequent were the trains? I'm just interested personally in the validity of the "use Liverpool instead" Beeching-axe arguments.

10. Before buses were deregulated on 20th October 1986, from the Wirral I could only ever get a bus to Woodside, never to Liverpool. I always had to get the train or ferry to reach Liverpool. Does anyone know why this restriction existed? I often rely on cross-river buses nowadays to save lots of time. This to me always seemed a bit of an incovenience.

Grateful for any insights on any of the above. Cheers, Paul

Re No 8 - there is a thread on here somewhere that refers (inconclusively!) to this alleged incident. Search Arrowe Park or boy scouts and it should come up.

Thanks Roslyn,

I've now located the relevant thread here:-
https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums...idge_By_Asda_in_Woodchur.html#Post325370

Certainly, it's tragic if it is true. This is the first time I've ever heard of this from another source. Didn't realise it was so long ago.

I notice on that thread people mentioned that it didn't seem likely, due to the height of the bridge, but as stated I think a possible answer to that was the bridge was effectively lower because the road was higher then that it is now.

Likewise as in that thread I'd also heard that the scout in question was from overseas.

Paul

no 7 is true,but it was on corporation road i beleive and he had an italian sounding name....bonar conetti or something stupid like that,has been mentioned on this forum before,cannot remember the real name.

I just spent about 15 minutes looking back over my previous posts because I knew I'd posted on that topic and when I found it I come back here to post the link and you'd already found it. Well done!!!!!!!!

august 17th 1958 ..bonar colleano

I think Bonar Coleno,was killed,when in the night he came out of the dock tunnel enterance and went along I believe towards a junction of Brassey street,Beckwith st,Cavendish St and a long gone V junction on Brassey st,he hit the V,if my memory is right the place was a scrappy,anybody else on that ?.
6. heard that rumour,the route I heard was Upton,Thingwall Road,and between Irby,Pensby south of Thurstaston then across,?.
9.Did it quite a few times but I wasn't bothered as it was for work,I think they had a 4 a day,but then you could get to Crewe and go anywhere,.
4. everybody was happy with the route to the M56 and eventually to the A55,if you look at the bridge across the Dee they were preparing for the motorway,the land all the way up to the A55 is still owned by the Mof Transport.
5. the Bridge going to nowhere it was cheaper to remove than to maintain but the land is still owned by the MofT so could be put to use,their is a motorway blog with all the info.
1.I think the book "Wirral Hundred" has a bit of info saying the where the canal is at Chester,it was origionally a river,which was fed from the Dee and the Mersey.
Birkenhead and Liverpool and Chester are still places you will hear the Welsh language,if you look at the temporary road works signs around Wirral you will find most are in English and Welsh I don't see anything in it apart from they go into Wales.

Paul: No.2 Birkenhead had a large Welsh population way back, as did parts of Liverpool. I had a couple of friends from Anfield area moons ago whose first language was Welsh. Learned English when they went to school.

No.3. The only other Welsh name I know - and it's not strictly the Wirral is Chester - "Caer"

No.6. Yes, there was a plan to put a barrage across the Dee (Hoylake-Point of Ayr). Got the thumbs down.

No.7. It was Bonar Colleno (sp?) I remember in the local rag, he was in a sports car and got blatted in Corporation Road.

No.8. As said there's a thread about this somewhere. I think it was the original (pre-1930's) bridge over Woodchurch Rd. Open top double decker. I think the poor guy was standing up (but not for long).

I must learn to type more quickly !!!!! Sorry dave !

Bonar Colleano was killed on Corporation rd after leaving the Shakespeare theater in Liverpool, There was however an American movie star killed while going to the Hoylake open many years ago, heard something about this recently on the TV, Need to keep digging, can't remember his name.

from wikipedia

One of the most dramatic events in Eisteddfod history was the award of the 1917 chair to the poet Ellis Humphrey Evans, bardic name Hedd Wyn, for the poem Yr Arwr (The Hero). The winner was announced, and the crowd waited for the winner to stand up to accept the traditional congratulations before the chairing ceremony, but no winner appeared. It was then announced that Hedd Wyn had been killed the previous month on the battlefield in Belgium. These events were portrayed in the Academy Award nominated film Hedd Wyn.

4. Lot of stuff on the M53 here on Wiki (plus links elsewhere). See: Clicky

I did the Woodside to Paddington a couple of times. Journey time was about 7 hours. The route was Chester, where the loco changed ends, Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Birmingham Snow Hill & after that I can't remember. It didn't touch Crewe, which was LMS territory & this train was GWR. (Lime St. to Euston was about 4 hours on one of the expresses; Red Rose, Manxman, are the ones I can remember).

Thanks very much to everyone for replying, this place really is a gold-mine of information!

Re: Number 7, Yes I've just found that Bonar Colleano has a Wikipedia page here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonar_Colleano

That's very sad, I didn't realise he was only 34. On Wikipedia, it also links to his wife's page (Susan Shaw), seems she took to drinking heavily after this and also died relatively young, a tragedy all round really.

I vaguely remember being told about the incident around fifteen years ago and this was in the pub at the time, so it is quite possible that I have got the road wrong and it may have been this incident involving Bonar Colleano that I was told about.

As bert1 mentions though perhaps there was another incident involving someone on their way to play golf at Hoylake, I just seem to remember being told about someone on their way to play golf who got killed. But, I could have my wires crossed on that issue.

Re: number 9 the Birkenhead to London train, yes I thought it mught have only been infrequent like about four a day. I travel to London a few times each year, and I can get the time down to about 2 hours 7 minutes on the fastest services from Lime Street to Euston. Of course I have to add some extra time on though to get from Birkenhead Central to Lime street, so total journey time is at least two and a half hours in practice. This is already a great improvement from the early nineties, when it used to take I think about three and a half hours just from Lime Street IIRC. So I wondered how long it used to take from Birkenhead to Paddington.

Re: The M53 questions, I'm just going to follow the above link now provided by billy.

I shall perform a more thorough search of the forums before posting next time as it seems many of my questions have already been previously covered on here! I'm very grateful for the replies and further info. Cheers all.

Single questions are sometimes better Paul, that way a new thread can be concentrated on or one can be sent in the right direction.

On the question of deregulation, no expert myself, i think it was more down to local treaties between the transport companies. Not good for the ferries having buses running through the tunnel, etc.
The little crosville bus i got at the Woodchurch every morning coming from West Kirby around the late sixties was only allowed to stop till it got to Arrowe park and then if my memory serves me right wasn't allowed to stop till it got to the tech college on Borough Rd.

I have to say, 7 hours is longer than even I expceted but doesn't surprise me. Indeed, the loco would have to change ends at Chester, I'd forgotten about that. The modern-day train from Holyhead to Cardiff (or Maesteg) also has to do that as it comes in off the North Wales coast line and then back onto the Wrexham, Shrewsbury line.

I've been following some of the original Birkenhead-Paddington route on my travels over the summer. I took some photos at Ruabon and then at Shrewsbury. A few weeks back I was at Snow Hill (en route to Stratford upon Avon).

I've also done the route from Marylebone to Moor street and I know that Chiltern railways do run an occasional service into Paddington in order to keep drivers famililir with the route.

I'm wondering if the Birkenhead services did take the Chiltern main line, south of Birmingham.

I went to RAF Cosford recently and there is a large map of GWR services there and has Birkenhead Woodside at the end of the main line going all the way to London - it's intersting to see it, I just can't recall the part of it south of Birmingham i.e. which way it went.

Yes I'm sure you are right, as fascinitaing as it is, it seems that have created a thread of chaos here.



That's interesting, I didn't realise there were also stopping restrictions within the Wirral itself.

I was also thinking along the lines that transport companies could not operate outside their own jurisdiction etc.. Also, what you mention about competition with other modes of transport makes sense.

I guess many on here will remember sometime after deregulation, when some Mersyside bus company encroached into Greater Manchester. In return, the Manchester company put on loads of "number 10" buses on the Birkenhead/Wallasey route in the original Birkenhead Corporation blue livery.

There were that many of them operating for a while, many of them were almost empty.

Then later, there was some sort of truce, and they withdrew all of those buses.

Also, Re: Hedd Wynn, I'll certainly have to watch that one sometime.

Haven't got the copies to hand, but I have two books on the Woodside - Paddington expresses. If you can locate a copy they may be of interest?

Paddington to the Mersey: G.W.R's Forgotten Route from London to Birkenhead by R.Preston Hendry
ISBN-13: 978-0860934424

Sorry, don't know if it's still in print but I know Leamington Spa and Brimingham Snow Hill get some coverage in it - copies are sometimes on Ebay. Failing that the library might be able to help.

The other book was printed by the Great Western Railway and was one of their 'From the Carriage Window' series - again ebay or the library might be the best bet.

Cheers

Little bit more on Birkenheads Eisteddfods

Despite being in England, Birkenhead (known as Penbedw, in the Welsh language) hosted Wales' National Eisteddfod in 1917[27] as well as an unofficial National Eisteddfod event in 1879. As in Liverpool,[28] migrants from Wales, especially north Wales, contributed greatly to the growth of the town and its cultural development in the 19th century. The first local Birkenhead Eisteddfod, a precursor of the national events, took place in 1864.[29] The 1917 National Eisteddfod was notable for the award of the chair to the poet Ellis Humphrey Evans, known as Hedd Wyn. The winner was announced, and the crowd waited for the winner to accept congratulations before the chairing ceremony, but no winner appeared. It was then announced that Hedd Wyn had been killed the previous month on the battlefield in Belgium, and the bardic chair was draped in black. These events were portrayed in the Academy Award nominated film Hedd Wyn, and were apparently intended as a protest against the war policies of Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who was present. There is a commemorative stone for the event in Birkenhead Park.[30] The first meeting of the international Celtic Congress also took place at the Birkenhead Eisteddfod.[31]

The stopping journey from Paddington to Woodside, as stated above, took about seven hours, but there was an express from Paddington at 9:10am which arrived at Woodside at 1:57pm.

The time table list the route as:

London (Paddington), Ealing (Broadway), Reading, Didcot, Culham, Radley, Oxford, Wolvercot Halt, Kidlington, Bletchingham, Heyford, Fritwell, Aynho, King's Sutton, Banbury, Cropredy, Fenny Compton, Southham Road, Leamington, Warwick, Hatton, Lapworth, Knowle, Widney Manor, Solihul, Olton, Acock's Gree, Tyseley, Small Heath, Bordesley, Birmingham (Moor St), Birmingham (Snow Hill), Hockley, Handsworth, West Bromwich, Swan Village, Wednesbury, Bradley, Bilston, Priestfield, Wolverhampton (Low Level), Dunstall Park, Codsall, Albrighton, Shifnal, Oakengates, Wellington, Admaston, Walcot, Upton Magna, Shrewsbury, Leaton, Baschurch, Rednal, Whittington, Gobowen, Preesegweene, Cefn, Rhosymedre Halt, Ruabon, Johnstown, Wrexham, Gresford, Rossett, Balderton, Saltney, Chester, Birkenhead (Woodside).

Bit on where Wirral ends and what it includes here

Crosville buses were only allowed to pick up passengers within the Birkenhead Corporation Area when travelling out of Birkenhead, and were only allowed to set down passengers when travelling into Birkenhead.

As an example, In Claughton Village you could get on the Crosville Bus coming from Park Station, going to West Kirby; but you couldn't get on the bus coming from West Kirby going to Park Station.

and

If you were on the Crosville bus coming from West Kirby you could get off at Claughton Village; but if you were on the bus coming from Park Station, you couldn't get off at Claughton Village.

The Crosville buses used the same bus stops as the Corporation Buses in most cases, but in Claughton Village in the West Kirby direction, they each had their own bus stop (next to each other).

Wow, thanks for that. 4 hours 47 minutes is pretty impressive compared with the Lime St.- Euston time. A couple of points from that route are interesting. First, considering all the tiny stations listed, why no mention of the stations between Chester & Birkenhead? Also, the line between Birmingham Snow Hill & Wolverhampton is now the Midland Metro tram system.

Thanks again all for the further info.

To Billy, you've given me a reason to finally get my library card renewed!

I used to go down there loads and even used to read in there a bit too - thanks to the peace and quiet, but since I've been using the Internet a lot more for reading, I have let my card expire some time ago. Really should sort that out soon and check out that book you mention.

To bert1, that really is very interesting about the Eisteddfodd, the draping of the bardic chair and its significance as an anti-war protest.

To uptoncx, that is a handy working definition of the geographical Wirral peninsula. (Just to clarify I'm not talking about the Metropolitan Borough or the Wirral Hundred, simply the geographical definition of the peninsula) I mean the definition on this post here:- https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums..._railways_of_Wirral_1830.html#Post319720

So, if I assume that "The River Dee" means the present day River Dee as it is now (using the canalised section) then a small part of the geographical Wirral Peninsula is indeed in Flintshire, Wales.

This first came to my attention as I started hiking a bit in that area over the last couple of years, when you come off a footpath onto a road and you start seeing bilingual road signs and Welsh flags flying in people's front gardens, you know you are in Wales. This initially surprised me as I knew I hadn't yet crossed "the blue bridge" over the Dee at that point.

I believe places like "Garden City" are on reclaimed land. As stated I think that the English/Welsh boundary reflects the original course of the River Dee before it silted up, necessitating the building of the canalised section. Although the River has had its course artificially changed, the English/Welsh boundary has remained intact. This is just my theory to be honest, but I always did wonder why a very small section of the south-western corner of the geographical peninsula does seem to be Welsh territory.

As for the Crosville buses, it's funny I really didn't know that. I did use those buses sometimes, but I guess I used the usual Merseybus ones much more in the 80s.

So the old Birkenhead-Paddington route did use some of the Chiltern Main line then (Leamington-Warwick etc). Interesting to see it also used the Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton line via Wellington, I was on that one recently. Think I've now effectively travelled most of the whole route in various different stages, apart from Wolverhampton-Snow Hill as I haven't yet travelled on the Midland Metro, only photographed it. I should do that sometime soon and fill in the gap. Cheers.

Good question, looking at the working timetables for Chester to Birkenhead, all of the Paddington trains are shown as 'express' and don't stop between Chester and Woodside (except that a footnote says that they will "stop at Birkenhead Town, if required to set down passengers booked to the Town Station only").

For completeness, the route from Chester to Birkenhead (from the working timetables) is:

Chester, Upton, Mollington, (Dunkirk), Capenhurst, Ledsham, Hooton, Bromborough, Spital, Port Sunlight, Bebington & New Ferry, Rock Ferry, (Mersey Junction), Green Lane, (Grange Lane), (Blackpool St Junction), Birkenhead Town, Birkenhead Woodside.

I remember when I was at school, pre mobile days, catching the direct train from Bromborough to London direct. This how ever was a special charter by Wirral Grammar. And I remember people collecting train numbers at crewe. lol

There again I collect aircraft numbers but thats for my log book / legal reasons.

Nomad

De-regulation in 1986 brought the bus companies into direct competition with the railway and ferry, wheras previously they ran to places where you 'interchanged' onto each other.

The bus company want the money these days, they dont want you to get off and use another form of transport.

Dont forget that buses, trains and ferries were previous to this managed or owned by the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive ... Crosville, Ribble and Greater Manchester buses ran under agreement with the MPTE and were handsomely remunerated for doing so.

So your special didn't use the GWR route since it went via Crewe. It would have gone into Euston. The line between Chester & Birkenhead was joint GWR/LMS if I remember correctly.

I have an old newspaper somwhere which mentioned an Eisteddfod being held in Liverpool, it went on to say that over 100,000 welsh speakers lived in the surrounding area's !.

I thought the last "offical" steam train to leave from paddington went to birkenhead !.

List of Eisteddfods

National Eisteddfod venues
1861 - Aberdare
1880 - Caernarfon
1881 - Merthyr Tydfil
1882 - Denbigh
1883 - Cardiff
1884 - Liverpool, England
1885 - Aberdare
1886 - Caernarfon
1887 - London, England
1888 - Wrexham
1889 - Brecon
1890 - Bangor
1891 - Swansea
1892 - Rhyl
1893 - Pontypridd
1894 - Caernarfon
1895 - Llanelli
1896 - Llandudno
1897 - Newport
1898 - Blaenau Ffestiniog
1899 - Cardiff
1900 - Liverpool, England
1901 - Merthyr Tydfil
1902 - Bangor
1903 - Llanelli
1904 - Rhyl
1905 - Mountain Ash
1906 - Caernarfon
1907 - Swansea
1908 - Llangollen
1909 - London, England
1910 - Colwyn Bay
1911 - Carmarthen
1912 - Wrexham
1913 - Abergavenny
1914 - Not held
1915 - Bangor
1916 - Aberystwyth
1917 - Birkenhead, England
1918 - Neath
1919 - Corwen
1920 - Barry
1921 - Caernarfon
1922 - Ammanford
1923 - Mold
1924 - Pontypool
1925 - Pwllheli
1926 - Swansea
1927 - Holyhead
1928 - Treorchy
1929 - Liverpool-England
1930 - Llanelli
1931 - Bangor
1932 - Aberavon
1933 - Wrexham
1934 - Neath
1935 - Caernarfon
1936 - Fishguard
1937 - Machynlleth
1938 - Cardiff
1939 - Denbigh
1940 - Eisteddfod Radio, Bangor
1941 - Old Colwyn
1942 - Cardigan
1943 - Bangor
1944 - Llandybie
1945 - Rhosllannerchrugog
1946 - Mountain Ash
1947 - Colwyn Bay

1948 - Bridgend
1949 - Dolgellau
1950 - Caerphilly
1951 - Llanrwst
1952 - Aberystwyth
1953 - Rhyl
1954 - Ystradgynlais
1955 - Pwllheli
1956 - Aberdare
1957 - Llangefni
1958 - Ebbw Vale
1959 - Caernarfon
1960 - Cardiff
1961 - Rhosllannerchrugog
1962 - Llanelli
1963 - Llandudno
1964 - Swansea
1965 - Newtown
1966 - Aberavon
1967 - Bala
1968 - Barry
1969 - Flint
1970 - Ammanford
1971 - Bangor
1972 - Haverfordwest
1973 - Ruthin
1974 - Carmarthen
1975 - Criccieth
1976 - Cardigan
1977 - Wrexham
1978 - Cardiff
1979 - Caernarfon
1980 - Gowerton - Lliw Valley
1981 - Machynlleth
1982 - Swansea
1983 - Llangefni
1984 - Lampeter
1985 - Rhyl
1986 - Fishguard
1987 - Porthmadog
1988 - Newport
1989 - Llanrwst
1990 - Rhymney Valley,
1991 - Mold
1992 - Aberystwyth
1993 - Builth Wells
1994 - Neath
1995 - Abergele
1996 - Llandeilo
1997 - Bala
1998 - Pencoed, near Bridgend
1999 - Llanbedrgoch, Anglesey
2000 - Llanelli
2001 - Denbigh
2002 - St David's
2003 - Meifod, near Welshpool
2004 - Newport
2005 - Faenol Estate, near Bangor
2006 - Felindre, Swansea
2007 - Mold
2008 - Cardiff
2009 - Bala
2010 - Blaenau Gwent[1][2][3]
2011 - Wrexham[2]
2012 - Vale of Glamorgan[2]
2013 - Denbighshire[2]
2014 - Carmarthenshire[2]
2015 - Monmouthshire[2]

You could get on the Crosville to West Kirby at the Birkenhead Library. Crosville had their own Bus Stop near the corner of Raffles Rd and Borough Rd.
But you got off on the other side of the road at a Corpy stop.

The last through train from Paddington to Woodside ran on Saturday, 4th March 1967. This was a special organised by Ian Allan, but it was diesel hauled out of Paddington as far as Banbury, then steam hauled by 'Clun Castle' to Woodside.

The last regular passenger steam train from Paddington was on 11th June 1965, this was also hauled by 'Clun Castle' and was timetabled as London Paddington to Banbury.