Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request River Fender

Dave, you enquired about the Annals Cambriae, as a point of information they do include a reference to the Wirral, in the legend of Culhwch and Olwen, where it's is featured as Cilgwri, the home of an ancient mythical bird. The basic story is summarized here http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/angelline/mabon_ap_modron.htm this indicates the formerly Welsh make-up of the Wirral.

Just been digging through some old papers I had in a folder on my bookcase and found an extract from a publication called 'Notes on the History of Woodchurch'. As well as outlining the argument about Landican being named either after Dagan/Degan or Tecwyn/Tegwyn etc., it also makes the interesting point that a very early document exists (refered to as a 'quitclaim' dating from about 1250) in which the church at Woodchurch is specifically recorded as being dedicated to St.Peter. I mention this, of course, purely to irritate the heck out of Erainn.

Richard Coates says in his paper on Liscard that - "We are not dealing with a place-name containing elements borrowed from Irish; it is fully linguistically Irish, and of a non-archaic type". To very briefly summarise, he says that most of the suggested Irish place-names in Wirral (like Irby, Arrowe, Noctorum and Liscard) all date from the early tenth century and are likely to be connected with the arrival of Ingimund and the 'Irish' Vikings as recorded in the Irish Annals. He goes on to suggest that within the Scandinavian territory which became established in North Wirral contemporary Irish & Scandinavian names are found, and that there was probably no single "community" language in the settlement area; but it is most likely that one language was available for the purpose of name-bestowal whilst the other was the one in ordinary conversational usage.

I can say this thread is turning into a major discussion about the area from now to the distant past, the learning from it, I doubt you could get from a college course, we do have named rivers the Dee and the Mersey, we also minor rivers the Birket and the Fender which are really brooks or streams that took run off from the hills into valleys and then into a marshy area the Moss and into Wallasey pool, which we know existed in the past, thinking on Wallasey pool it is wide and I would have thought shallow, so what action created it, did tidal action from the Mersey or was it worn away via a river or just a number of Brooks converging into it,when was the marsh created, was it winter weather and tides that created it,the maps we have seem to show the Birket as a slow winding brook which drains into the marsh,the same with the Fender as a kid I remember it was a slow winding stream by the railway line, both have had the flood treatment from the 70's, but they do show they are still brooks or streams, still just draining the hills, which reminds me of the dungeons the stream running thru that is/was that named?, we know they named brooks because because the brooks that run into these rivers are named, are we just going in circles and we have the modern version names of Erainn's ye olde river names ,which are actually the names of the brooks, which where for convience in the last few centuries were just tidied up into a fendered waterway and named?.

PS
I did send an email to prof Steve Harding to see if he can enlighten us.

PPS have saved the url and will look later on as my minder is making me go shopping, sometimes this very long sleeved jacket and the buttons and belts on the back make this coat difficult to get off.

Come on old bean, let's maintain an objective exchange

The church you mention, is somewhat unique in having three dedications, including St Peter, but also much earlier, and of significance to our discussion, that of a British saint, Tecwyn.

As to Norse-Irish (a dubious, misleading term) indeed they were 'removed' from Eire, set up on Man to relocate on the Wirral, but research the dates of that settlement, centuries after the Wirral's British/Welsh population had settled, and had named various settlements and as we are speculating, possibly rivers too.

Haha calling up the heavy artillery eh?

Dave, here's a shot that gives an idea of what those areas surrounding Wallasey Pool, may have originally looked like http://www.flickr.com/photos/sliabhnacailleach/5207209809/ A zone of inter-tidal salt marsh, with barely recognizable streams/rivers feeding into it.

Ah, so if I take a walk down to Thurstaston I can have a real time look.

I was thinking on that how the transfer of water from the "rivers" through the marsh to Wallasey pool went, I understand it may have been blocked by water mills which may imply that it had a fair amount of water as a head to turn these wheels,it also suggests that it had a quite a drop to the pool.

As far a artillery is concerned no, the discussion has go me intrigued and as the gentleman has knowledge of the area and more or less the era your are interested in, the extra knowledge could be a massive help, I'am a great believer in if you don't know then don't be shy enquire as with WikiWirral someone will know.

..don't mean to offend anyone Erainn, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

In objective terms, there is documentary evidence for an early dedication of the church at Woodchurch to St.Peter but there is no historical record or archaeological evidence that specifically links any Celtic saint (be they Welsh or Irish) with the Llan. A single place-name is insufficient evidence (in my opinion), and although in terms of its topography the circular enclosure of Holy Cross Woodchurch is in keeping with many early church sites it cannot even be proven conclusively that 'Woodchurch' and 'Landican' are one and the same.

If your own argument for a British/Welsh settlement in Wirral is correct there should be more than just one or two examples of British place-names. I know diddly squat about linguistics but I am aware that other people far more knowledgeable than myself do argue the case that some of the supposed British names (like Liscard) are in fact more recent.

You have to remain open to the possibility that the reason the watercourses don't have identifiable British names is because either they were relatively insignificant or the British population was less significant than you believe.

Definition of BROOK

Middle English, from Old English brōc; akin to Old High German bruoh marshy ground
First Known Use: before 12th century

names may have been called after places where you could safely cross them and extend to the rest of a river/stream
eg Ford Brook or a a fendered part with a bridge

Thnks for confirming your playful role in this discussion.

I have no 'belief' one way or another, simply airing some reasoned speculation, as to alternative possible origin for the river's name. As mentioned previously it is absurd to consider that the population of the Wirral were unable to confer a name upon that water, until many centuries passed and then supposedly did so after an artificial construction.

I have not sought to conflate the origins of Woodchurch with Landican, just alluded to the the early dedications attributd to that church as being thought to be that of Tecwyn, with the obvious association of similar place names in Wales as Llantecwyn (Landican).

As to the paucity of Welsh British places names on the Wirral, well we are reminded that absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absenceMoreover we need to consider that there are similar patterns of across the country, where British place names are few and surrounded by later Saxon or Norse names. This does not mean however that the local British population were not present, clearly when considering the relatively low (in comparison to the 'native' British) numbers of Saxon/Norse settlers, it is nonsense to accept the notion that original peoples suffered solme catastrophic demographic reduction, and were replaced by countless numbers of invading settlers. The process in Britain was more gradual assimilation,and political and military control, yet with the original inhabitants remaining in the majority (see DNA researches on that issue) though adopting language and possibly some customs/culture. Hence we have a situation where a huge majority were neither Saxon or Scandinavian, but embarced a language and thus place names reflected that. On a local levle a similar model could be applied to the Wirral, yet we should not forget that it is generally held that natural features such as rivers have name of great antiquity, as noted often pre-dating later incursions. That being so, it is not beyond possibility that the Wirral was populated by a Brityish/Welsh people and that local features may well have been given specific names.

On the subuject of water, you should know that springs, streams, pools and rivers were often held by the Celts as sacred and would in all likelyhood not been ignored.

...I did indeed know that about water and have often considered the possibility of an inland lake at the North Wirral lowlands/Bidston Marshes which may have been a ritual site for votive deposits.


...but I digress.

I have been following this topic with some interest, although I am unable to contribute to it other than saying I always knew it as the Fender brook. I have found that the naming of things can change from generation to generation and these changes can well occur in both written and cartographic records although the same object is being talked about.
My comment about Port Sunlight was not entirely frivolous. Locally there is a clear example of cartogrpahic error by the OS. Folly Fruit Farm is no longer a fruit farm but has retained its name

The correct position of Folly Fruit Farm

If you go to bing maps and enter PO20 3SB and switch to Ordnance Survey you will see that it marked as being on the lefthand side rather than the right, right in the middle of our plantation !! (Sorry about this lengthy method but I keep getting told my uploads are too big !)

Such errors are being created even now, so how can one ever be certain that the records are correct ? Can one even rely of the OS

I'm sure part of which you are trying to unravel is down to this sort of thing.
Keep 'em coming.

I’d pretty much given up on this topic as I became out of my depth amongst the academic crossfire! However, I’ve rediscovered some old notes and books which have some comments that may be pertinent.

The first mention I can find of a ‘fender’ in Wirral is in a partition deed of 1 May 1585 relating to Hoose. The land had been bought by Miles Fells and John Roberts, yeomen of Bidston for £100 and the deed was to formalise who had which bit and provided as follows:

“A ditch is to be made on the east side of the Dowes or portion of land from the South Meadow to the highway. Roberts also promises to make an able ditch or fender between the South Meadow and North Meadow, with a platt or bridge over the ditch at the east end. Free passage is to be allowed through South Meadow to North Meadow and vice versa. Fells is to make a ditch on the north side of the Dowes or portion of land between the North Meadow and Upper Lands, and Roberts to make one on the north side of the said Upper Land as far as his land extends. Either party is to be at liberty to enclose in that part of the land which lies between the highway and the sea.”

Whether the ditches required under the deed were for drainage or served as boundaries is open to conjecture. Due to the nature of the land I would suggest a dual purpose. However, the use of the word fender seems to show that it was a term in common use in the 16th century. As this deed relates to a relatively small parcel of land, it is not unreasonable to suggest that there were many other fenders dotted around Wirral which had been made for whatever purpose, possibly as the result of similar legal rulings. So, assuming that there had been lots of ditch/fenders dotted around for centuries, this would support my contention that the Main Fender (Birket) was exactly that – the longest and biggest fender into which the others drained – and any ancient river name had been long forgotten by the local inhabitants. In his book on the history of West Kirby (published 1928), John Brownbill states categorically that “The name Birket for this stream is modern, having been supplied by the Ordnance Survey. The word is a contraction of Birkenhead.”

In the same book, there is an interesting description of the area around West Kirby. particularly as it relates to the problems of flooding:

“The long narrow slip of Great Meols, extending about two and one half miles to the beginning of Wallasey, has a curious appearance on the map, but is due to the old natural features of the land to the south of it. Formerly this land, on both sides of the Birket brook, must have been almost permanently under water, for the surface is now below high-water mark, and so level that the water cannot run away quickly. The resulting swamp or moss or carr formed the natural boundary be¬tween Meols and the adjoining parish of Bidston. The land along the Birket, from Grange to Wallasey Pool, now known as the Great Float, is still liable to floods; and some further difficulty has been created by the formation of the Birkenhead Docks. The 10 ft. culvert which carries off the water, the entrance being on the east of the old Birkenhead Docks Station, has become too small, as the surface water and sewage from a great part of Birkenhead is now drained into the culvert. For this purpose it was not constructed and the Act of 1844 does not provide for it. The culvert's self-acting flap-valve at the out-fall at Woodside closes on the flood tide and opens on the ebb; it thus operates for about six hours between each tide, and this is insufficient to release the Birket flood water, for which it was originally con¬structed, and the Birkenhead sewage as well.
Apart from the Birket brook there are no noteworthy streams. Frankby is bounded on the east and west by two small brooks which join at its northern end and thence flow along the northern boundary of Greasby to join the Arrowe brook, which runs northward along the eastern boundary of Greasby and then, as augmented, between Moreton and Saughall Massie till it reaches the Birket.”

That’s my lot – I’m all fendered out! I shall now sink back into my armchair and contemplate less taxing matters.

Academic? crossfire? Surely not

Great info and certainly supports the association of 'fender' with either boundaries or defensive structure, although that was never in question, nor the flooding which affected costal areas of the Wirral.

As to the assertion that "..and any ancient river name had been long forgotten by the local inhabitants." we are left searching to understand why a local population would suffer a collective amnesia and be unable to recall a traditional name of the river, and thus seize uon the idea of naming it after such embankments. As has been noted, rivers were usually named at some very early stage, and by virtue of the observable fact such names have passed down through the generations is testament to their longevity, and also the willingness of local people to honor and respect such names. It would be highly unusual that our Wirral ancestors be so pecularly struck by memory loss as to need a 'modern' replacement for the name of a river which had flowed past Celts, Saxons, Norse and Normans, one that in all probability had ben conferred a title from some distant time.

You may recall the letter I posted previously when the old inhabitants of Meols and Moreton were quoted as saying: “Well they calls it the Birket now but we never heard it called ought but the Fender when we was young”. Based on your arguments about tradition, collective amnesia and memory loss, then the ancient name of the Birket must have been the Fender. Either that or the writer had been unlucky enough to have spoken to particularly stupid or forgetful locals who couldn’t remember the proper ancient name. Also, I’d have thought that Ordnance Survey would have consulted with the locals when naming landmarks for their first maps. If so - and the ancient traditional name was available – why was it necessary for them to invent the name Birket?

Whilst I appreciate the romanticism of some of your arguments I really can’t subscribe to the view that ancient mystical tenets necessarily survived through the centuries resulting in local people from the Middle Ages onward honouring and respecting river names as if they were Druids.