Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request River Fender

As promised the Emails and Prof Steve Hardings reply

To: "dave ********" <davew3@*********>

Thanks Dave
You can quote me with identification and also Paul if he adds anything.
Intriguigingly Birket sounds like a modern Norwegian name "the birch (tree)" but that is just coincidence.
All best wishes
Steve Harding

________________________________________
From: dave ******** [davew3@*********]
Sent: 03 March 2011 10:46
To: Stephen Harding
Subject: RE: Naming of Wirral rivers

Thank you for replying to my questions, can I have your permission to copy the email body of your reply without any identification onto the Wikiwirral, Fender thread.

Thank you for again your help

Dave ********

--- On Wed, 2/3/11, Stephen Harding <Steve.Harding@***********> wrote:

> From: Stephen Harding <Steve.Harding@********>
> Subject: RE: Naming of Wirral rivers
> To: "dave ********" <davew3@********>
> Date: Wednesday, 2 March, 2011, 21:53
> Dear Dave
> Thanks for your enquiry. They are not Viking names.
> Also, whereas river names can be very old going back before
> even the Celts we don't think this is the case for the
> Fender and Birket, the names seem to be more recent
> The authorative word is J. M. Dodgson and attached is what
> he writes in "The Place Names of Cheshire" Part I -
> which includes rivers and streams.
> The Birket was formally the Birkin which is considered to
> have come from Birkenhead, although Dodgson thinks the
> stream was called the Fender - like the present one.
> The present Fender seems to derive from the name referring
> to a drainage system or bank protecting low lying land from
> flooding - and we know large areas of N. Wirral were liable
> to flooding before the sea defences were built. An
> earlier name is 1522 The water of Ayne, whose meaning seems
> unknown, maybe this is much older.
> I've copied this to Dr.Paul Cavill of the English Place
> Name Society to see if he can add anything.
> Hope this helps a little anyway!
> Steve Harding
>
> ________________________________________
> From: dave ******** [davew3@********]
> Sent: 24 February 2011 08:29
> To: steve.harding@********
> Subject: Naming of Wirral rivers
>
> Dear Professor Harding.
>
> As a member of https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk,I'am
> wondering if you could help in answering a question posed on
> a history forum.
>
> https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/80/1/Wirral_History.html
>
>
> Subject River Fender.
>
> We are trying to find out if/when the river Fender and the
> Birket were named and if they were named in Celtic or Viking
> times or even before that and I am wondering if you would
> have any information on the subject, knowing that your
> interest is the Viking era.
>
>
> my name on the forum is davew3
>
> regards Dave ********
> Wirral
>
>
>



Apart from email addresses removed and the usual threats at the bottom if the email gets in the wrong hands and a bit of formatting because of line breaks,it's as is.
It now means going back through the 17 pages to check out and a look see if we can get the book on Ebay.

The attachment has a pdf extension so needs to be modded to a jpg will do that later and post it.

is everyone ignoring my posts? I have the book here, and quoted it in full!! I'll scan the full article if you want.

Hopefully not Deano, Dave's only posting the reply as promised,
Fog of war and all that rubbish, I wouldn't mind reading the article, if thats possible.

Not sure if I can scan it and post it on the site, but if you PM me your email address, I'll scan it tonight and send it to you.

sent Bert. Stick to conditions as per email if that's OK mate...saves me getting in trouble! Cheers.

Deano
I did read what you said, but do apologise if you think I had my welding glasses on when I was reading this topic, it's just that Iam trying to convert a pdf to jpg but forgot I trashed my pc and I am trying to setup again and yes I would love a copy,if you go to mystuff at the top you can send a message to anybody on wiki, I haven't checked files though but if you have the book page 15 and 23,is the attachment from prof Steve Harding.

No problems Dave, I can't really mass send it out as it's copyrighted, but don't mind emailing you a copy if you PM me your email.

mystuff should be flashing

sent!

actually, being overly paranoid regarding copyright, if one of you guys wish to post it here, then go for it! Just don't say it's from me!

Interesting reply from Stephen Harding, that echoes points raised by other contributors here. Reading his words carefully it's apparent that again, nothwithstanding his academic standing, the matter itself remains unresolved, as demonstrated by the tentative and extenuating tone of Professor Harding's response. I have for the purpose of reference included the most salient extract of his comments, emphasising in bold some words to highlight his understanadble conjecture in light of an absence of any more definitive information. Have also placed in parenthesis questions that spring to mind)

"....They are not Viking names. Also, whereas river names can be very old going back before even the Celts we don't think this is the case for the Fender and Birket, the names seem to be more recent. (On what documented basis is that cautious assertion made?)The authorative word is J. M. Dodgson and attached is what
he writes in "The Place Names of Cheshire" Part I - which includes rivers and streams.

The Birket was formally the Birkin which is considered to
have come from Birkenhead, although Dodgson thinks the
stream was called the Fender - like the present one (So we have the opinion of Dodgson, again based on what primary sources?)The present Fender seems to derive from the name referring
to a drainage system or bank protecting low lying land from
flooding - and we know large areas of N. Wirral were liable
to flooding before the sea defences were built. An
earlier name is 1522 The water of Ayne, whose meaning seems
unknown, maybe this is much older.(This observation tends to echo a point raised earlier in the discussions here, in that the stream may well have had an earlier name, only to be possibly replaced at what was seemingly a very late stage)

I am sure that there is agreement that although Stephen Harding's contribution is a significant contribution, one for which Dave merits collective thanks for taking the time to invite that response, it is nevertheless lacking a definitive conviction, being in the same arean of speculation that has hosted the many fine contributions on this subject. On that basis, and with all respect to Professor Harding, may I suggrest questions remain

When you have eliminated the imposible whatever remains however improbbible must be the truth.With all respect to Professor Harding I would think that a scholar of his standing has done just that.

With all respect to Conan Doyle, I think it is clear that the Professor has not eliminated anything impossible, as the alternative options of the name being, either of Welsh/British or later Germanic origins, [u]though speculative[/u], are not beyond reason or possibility. Given the low-lying, flooded and marsh-like nature of that region, prior to the coastal defences mentioned, we should not dismiss the potential significance to the term 'Fen'

Being derived from Old English fenn. from Proto-Germanic fanja. Cognates include Gothic (fani), Old Frisian (fenne), Dutch (veen) and German (Fenn(e), Venn, Vehn, Feen, Fehn)

What Stephen Harding has done is to offer an opinion, that conforms to the alternative proposal that the stream in question was seemingly named after a defensive flood barrier. In so doing he, as all who have contributed to this discussion, been required to limit comments to speculation as there seems to be a lack of any clear, definitive material on the subject. In that context, no fact has been established and as noted previously, there remain a number of options to choose from.

No no no .... that logic doesn't follow. When you have eliminated the impossible, what remains MAY be possible however unlikely.

Erainn, I am not in academia, so local history informtion is from what I can read from the books that are available and trips to the records offices in Birkenhead and Chester and contact with like minded people on WikiWirral, I contacted Prof Steve Harding and asked as in my email above, his area of expertise is well known and his books on the Vikings sometimes a bit heavy but are a read I really enjoy, his opinion and information is to be something to build on, If the Vikings had named the rivers then this gentleman would have known, we now have a marker to work from, here be Vikings and down that passage be Celts/Welsh/old English ,I feel your using your knowledge and obvious intelligence and your daahn south, London know all attitude to brow beat us amateurs into submission, I'am very happy to have got to this point as the input has been just superb but I now consider this as a closure point for me.