Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past Wirral History Cross Hill ,Thingwall

I appreciate that the Gosforth Cross is Anglo Saxon, the Anglo-Saxon period denotes the period of British history between about 450 and 1066 and includes the period of occupancy by the Vikings or so I believe. I thought you may have been refering to this cross as it is carved with Christian symbolism, including a depiction of the crucifixion of Christ. The cross also has Scandinavian images identified as the god Víðarr tearing the jaws of FenrirThor's failed attempt to catch Jörmungandr, the Midgard Serpent. The god Heimdallr holding his horn. Loki bound with his wife Sigyn protecting him. I thought the info may have been pertinent to your point. No worries if not. I had not seen the stones you mentioned, thanks for that.

Sorry Gee, should have acknowledged the Gosforth Stone. It is very interesting and I didn't realise the periods crossed over as such. Beautifully crafted stones aren't they ? How can they tell the difference between Viking and Saxon ?

what is this ?

http://assemblyfield.blogspot.co.uk/p/the-cross-hill-recordings.html

No worries Granny, it's easy to forget that the name of a period can also refer to its people too. There will always be a crossover period as there is with iron age and stone age for example. The carvings are brilliant, I took a keen amature intrest in such things after being stationed in Belize and visiting virgin Mayan digs and seeing their carvings. I believe the differences between Viking and Saxon is dependent on the type and context of the carvings bearing in mind that a saxon stone mason may have been 'employed' by a viking to make a carving for him and vice verca.

Fascinating ! It is with wonder how beautiful these many artifacts were made.

My belief continues to flow in the direction of Cross Hill being related to 'a cross' whether it be Saxon, Viking or Christian. Mainly due to the article which stated that Vikings were met in England by 'Cross-Men'.
Nearly all place names in this country have a link to ancient roots, and why would the same not apply to Thingwall ? It may have been later, not necessarily to do with Vikings, but still an interesting thought, although never to be proven.

Maybe 'Cross Hay' could throw some light on it.

One other point is the ancient church of St. Decan at Landican.(Llan-tegan’)

Literally, a stones thrown from Cross Hill ,Thingwall , and along the lanes or over the fields as it would have been then. Maybe that could be the connection ?

Landican is an intriguing place, too - recorded in the Domesday book as Landechene; I think the name is also said to have derived from the Welsh for oak - i.e. oak church/Woodchurch. I'm not sure about that, as the Welsh for oak is derwen/derw. Names change quite a lot over the centuries. the Cross Hill name might also come from a market-type meeting cross, to mark the imprtant gathering place. Interesting topic!

Landechene looks as if it's derived from the French for oak: chêne. If the "Lande" part is also from French, that means moor, but I suspect it's from the Welsh for church: "llan".

Have found this article , which puts another translation on the origin of Landican. Even more possible, as the copy posted on the link from the Lancashire and Cheshire, would indicate that Llann Aedhagain was the name used by the writers of Norse Runes in the Isle of Man.

https://keeganfamilytree.wordpress.com/2014/01/10/aedhagain/

"" Seagha’s two sons were Olchobar (O’Shea) and Aedhagain. We know little about this Aedhagain, but he may well have been a prolific priest or maybe even an Irish Saint.

Derry Keighan in Antrim seems to bear his name, as does Landican (Llann Aedhagain) in the Wirral near Liverpool, and Landican in the Isle of Man.""

Unfortunately ,I cannot locate Landican on the Isle of Man map. Can anyone else find it ? Maybe it is close to Tynwald. (Isle of Man's version of Thingwall)

I suppose that both of them could be of Gaelic origin. Having walked along the lanes at Thingwall this am. I think the land would have been more wooded than fields at that period, but never the less, old pathways lead in various directions, one down to Bebington, another which goes across to Landican, which was across the farm fields, but I believe certain residents (new comers) had part of it blocked. Cross Hill is certainly the highest point and if it was open space , could have been the place for any form of ceremony, religious ,Pagan or otherwise.(i.e. apart from the Viking Assembly) Also, I imagine the church at Landican would have held the land in the immediate areas, stretching to a fair distance. Any ideas ?

I would think it likely, that Woodchurch was originally part of Landican, and Holy Cross Church is the site of the original 'lann', not modern day Landican or Thingwall. Especially considering it's obvious antiquity, and the fact that it stands in a curvilinear churchyard.

We tend to think of Landican now as the area around the cemetery, but it probably once covered a much larger area (including Woodchurch).

As to the name Cross Hill, well that is somewhat vexing...

Well hello Ying Yang ! Long time no see, and it's noted you have now extended your 666 posts , you little devil

You could very well be correct and as there is a Saxon wheel cross built into the wall of the chancel, it could indicate that the original building was on the same point, near enough. However, if so, it is still not much more than a mile to Cross Hill, and less to the little hamlet of Landican Village down Landican Lane,(not exactly where the cemetery is) so the possibility is still the same.

I am still of the opinion that due to Llan (Welsh/Celtic) meaning either church/parish or a hamlet in rural habitation, Dican could be Deacon, or as Chris says likely Chene, meaning oak. So we would have Llan de Chene. Village of Oak ,but I don't understand why the Normans would incorporate Welsh and French into a name place. The 'de' was introduced by the French in or soon after 1066.

One other possibility is from decan, which is appears to be used in late 16th century Latin for a chief of a group of ten or another possibility is
quote " Several pages explain the decans very well.. Decans is an ancient word; pre-Egyptian. Believing many gods controlled their lives, Egyptians vainly slipped the word over to their belief of the stars telling them about themselves( astrology ) instead of the stars declaring God's plans and identity to humans, animals, birds and sea creatures ( astronomy )."

I like that possibility.

The Celts (Ketoi)was the name given by the ancient Greeks. So with the connection between ancient Greece and Egypt that explanation could be feasible.
If the name is as old as that, I do not think that any Saint would have been named. St. Tegan is supposedly an ancient Welsh Saint, and hardly mentioned, with translation meaning beautiful or pretty, but my thoughts are with the fact that I don't believe any of them knew about Saints as the first Saint was only canonised in 993AD or a slight possibility of 804AD.
I think all this will have to go to the vote !

In addition bringing us back to the 19th century, I found this which is 'History of the Royal Rock Beagle Hunt'. Give some interesting descriptions of areas , including mentioning a pretty little vale at Barnston named Fiddler's Folly,(maybe that's where the phantom fiddler originates from?) on page 132. I assume that will mean 'the dip' at Barnston. On page 176 it mentions a cottage in Barnston Wood. They are under Landican search.
In the search box, put your own place of interest, something may come up .

https://archive.org/stream/historyofroyalro00cain#page/n5/mode/2up

I spotted Fiddler's Folly on the maps which intrigued me, its close to some rough lands (plot called "Rough and Pits in Cross Hill") so "folly" might just mean "mistake" as in someone purchasing/leasing unusable land.

Fiddler's Ferry name is thought to come from corruption of Adam Le Vicleur surname but I doubt if there is a connection but it shows how much pronunciation and spelling can change over the years.

...I think you'll find my visits ceased around Halloween, granny, and I then went 'underground', so to speak. But only to escape the cold! It's springtime now (a time of resurrection) and I see you're resurrecting the spectre of your Fiddler's Folly thread.

I may have to unleash the hounds!

Ha ! Pleased you are back up again with the sun shining on you. Don't keep disappearing like that, we worry in case you've fossilized.

With regard to Fiddler's Folly, I have a book in front of me, Tingvelle, by Greg Dawson. There is a page of maps with field names going back to 1850. Although I can't find Fiddler's Folly , there is a field named 'Folly' behind the Cross Hill reservoir, which will be off Gills Lane. Owned by R. Vyner from Thingwall Farm (which was leased) So still looking for the darned Fiddler . Maybe Vyner was the Fiddler !

Next to Folly field at road level and now on the reservoir land and the corner of Gills Lane/Barnston Road is Rowens and Pits, also owned by R Vyner. Rough and Pits does not appear on the maps which I look at, DD and I have not been able to spot it anywhere else either.

There are some lovely field names; 'money pit', 'two little loaves', 'two big loaves','whelpers' 'shocking dale' and 'the mistake' to name but a few.

Lovely

Fiddler's Folly is Plot 100, on the south of Thingwall Common.

Rough and Pits is plot 29 on the south of cross hill (western side of road).

Both are in Barnston Dale

That would explain. This map only goes up to the Thingwall/Barnston boundary. Thereis a plot on the fringe of the boundary called Folly Croft, and three other plots named as 'Croft' all next to each other, also right on edge of Thingwall side the boundary. R Vyner owns those too. I imagine they might all be in the same location where Murrayfields is now.

Thanks DD.

Another interesting bit of information is cannon balls, used in the Civil War, were found in Barnston Dale a number of years ago.

I love this area, probably because it is relatively unspoilt and history of the land is easier to follow.