Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request Woodchurch 'Stone'

I agree, a very good point Greenwood. I would very much like to read the article too if you find it DD, would you mind posting the link or pm me if and when you do find it, thanks

Is this of interest Erainn ?

As the Celts were into their astrology,, could it be that they represented a copy of the constellations on the land for rituals ?
As the Egyptians did when building the pyramids inline with Orion's belt.

http://cura.free.fr/xx/17bouten.html

Hi Granny, It's accepted that the Celts did have a knowledge and veneration of the stars, of course they emerged much later than the period of megaliths, but would have regarded such sites with a certain awe and respect. The possible alignment that seems to be suggested by rows of stone marked on historic maps of the Wirral, that have since been lost, looks to be Solar. One way to examine this further would be via field observation at those precise locations during the appropriate date of sunrise (cloud conditions notwithstanding) with markers of around 5 to 6 feet replicating the position of those stones.

If these stones are anything more than gateposts then I'm curious to know why nobody has ever picked up on this before. Why have no Wirral historians ever written about this precise same subject? Why do no published histories speak of Wirral possessing standing stones, or a possible stone circle? You would think that someone like David Randall in his book 'The Search for Old Wirral' would have at least noted them, or that their presence would have been recorded during archaeological surveys of the area by specialists like Gill Chitty, or the team behind the more recent Historic Characterisation Projects. Apart from a few years living and working in France, I have spent most of my life locally and never once heard or read anything about Wirral having standing stones or a stone circle. I would, however, be delighted to hear if any authoritative or reliable references do exist.

Might I suggest that one problem with using historic maps is that they do not indicate the size of any stones marked upon them. The fact that a 'stone' is featured on a map tells us very little about the nature or purpose of that stone, or indeed it's antiquity unless cartographers specifically indicate it as being an 'Ancient Monument'. So when we talk about the word 'stone' being marked on a map do we really know what it means?

Should we be surprised if stones featured on old maps appear to sometimes align? Bearing in mind that Wirral was once covered with farmland and probably had hundreds (if not thousands) of gateposts and boundary markers, and that fields being generally rectilinear and often grouped in parallel (or continuous with each other) would have had many gateposts on similar alignments. And given the large numbers of these stones and their distribution, then statistically at least a proportion of these stones might be construed as aligning with some sort of astronomical aspect or feature.

On that argument, all history has been done and there is no more to be found.

I'm interested in where this leads, I believe a lot of the stones will be gateposts, boundary markers, scratching post etc, but you never know.

We still haven't fully resolved two of the established stone rows on the Wirral, there are at least three theories for one (Bidston observatory calibration, cattle guides) and the other is presumed (driveway markers). The former as far as I can was only re-discovered by a Wikiwirral person at a time when we were lucky enough to have a keen researcher on hand.

It is precisely the location, relation to the horizon and topography, along with any possible correlation with significant observable celestial events that offers insight. Maps showing stones, while unable to offer conclusive evidence, can indicate possible alignments. Looking at those maps within that area there appears to be some suggestion of stone rows, more research needs to be done, especially field-work where direct observations can be measured and recorded. There's no reason to imagine that the region did not have a Neolithic society, including structures and monuments that connected to the solar or lunar rising. Has every trace of that culture been obliterated by time and mans's activity? Did 19th Century maps record some stones (now disappeared) that may have had a very different original function and purpose than that of boundary markers or gateposts?

But don't forget the skies aren't everything, with the Wirral having Mountains visible those landmarks could be significant as well.

Imagine if some Welsh Druids periodically go to the top of a mountain and light a fire, this could be visible from the Wirral and have as much, if not more impact than a star. Also don't forget that without street lights, the amount of visible stars is huge and fairly mundane.

Hi DD, horizon and natural features no doubt played their part in observing the rising/setting of the Sun, Moon and certain stars at key dates. That ancient peoples were aware and marked as sacred key periods, stars and constellations is given some weight by archeological artifacts such as the Nebra Sky Disk and Coligny Calendar. Particular times were critical, especially the Cross-Quarter days of Samhain, Imbolg, Beltane and Lughnasad, at those dates certain high-magnitude stars had Helical Risings and would have been very visible indeed. Such bodies were no doubt held in great esteem. Fascinating as it is and certainly mountains such as Moel Fammau would perhaps have been venerated and possibly used for Beltane fires, the stones in question suggest a possible alignment towards the ENE, with some in particular indicating an orientation towards the Summer Solstice. Be it a built-in function or happy circumstance it will be interesting to survey those precise locations on that date to record in more detail.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/...aracterisation-project/Wirral-Part-6.pdf

I have read this recent assessment of Wirral history/archaeology by the professionals and can find no mention of standing stones at Upton (Overchurch), Arrowe Park, or Woodchurch...

I disagree. There is plenty to still be found but there is a big difference between the material available for study for recorded history compared to pre-history.

It is not any surprise to read that such a report makes no reference to standing stones in the area, in itself that does not constitute evidence that none originally existed. Such a document is based upon previously recorded data or cartography, it is not a definitive archeological survey of the region. That the Wirral had neither Neolithic or Bronze-Age communities, along with their ritualistic culture seems unlikely. Of course field evidence has been lost over the centuries with farming and urbanization. That though should not be seen as proof that such cultures did not populate the region and should there ever be a comprehensive geophysical survey of the peninsular we may well yet discover that Neolithic or Bronze-Age people settled there. As to the stones in question it's important to consider that were any indeed megaliths over time their original function could have been lost to folk memory. What were known (and used as) say in the 17th or 18th Century as gateposts would to the local community have no ancient history. It is possible that such stones could have been overgrown for centuries prior to land clearance for farming during the Medieval, to be redressed, relocated or used in situ either as posts or boundary stones. In such a situation local people could not be expected to regard them as anything else.

I always thought that they found Neolithic cremated remains not far from the "column" or what it really is a sea mark in West Kirby when they were building it

These are not cremated remains....

Click onto the 'record ID' it gives a map for some of them if you scroll down a bit.


https://finds.org.uk/news/theyworkforyou/finds/constituency/Wirral+West/broadperiod/NEOLITHIC

It does for this one.

https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/218841

...the classic "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Very true, but that just leaves us with our blank canvas of pre-history on which we can project whatever we wish it to be.

Might I suggest to the learned blogger that if he cast his gaze just a little to the west of the Overchurch site, early maps show a cross (or, dare I say it, possible standing stone of some description) at Saughall Massie (close to the ancient bridge). This cross is clearly shown on Bryant's Map of 1831, and is of some antiquity as field-names from the 17th century record the name 'Crosse Tree Flat' associated with this area.

Perhaps, in the absence of any definite evidence of the stones at Overchurch being anything more than grave slabs or gateposts, it would be interesting to examine the relationship of this feature to the Overchurch site. Especially as it was clearly an upright and not a recumbent stone; has some demonstrable antiquity; and may be early Christian if related to the original chapel at Overchurch. It would, of course, be a leap of faith to suggest any kind of earlier date for this stone but I'm sure that wont stop some people trying...

YY thanks for the suggestions, am happy to keep an open-mind, after all we are not in the arena of certainty, and no one is affirming specific dates for the stones in question. I guess we are all engaged in reasonable speculation and posing questions that challenge a convention that all such structures were either gate-posts or boundary markers.

What we also have is not a 'blank-canvas' but recorded archeological evidence that the area was inhabited during the Neolithic. That being the case such people would have been expected to follow their ritualistic culture and along with that raised megalithic strictures.

The possible alignment of stones, no longer existing, marked on 19th Century maps raise some tantalizing questions, we can only approach these via careful field-surveys and running a number of calculations and models to check for an indication of astronomic alignment. I hope that anyone with an interest in this topic who is based on The Wirral may consider carrying out such work, especially as we approach the Summer Solstice.

As to structures which have place-names that describe them as a cross, and given the proximity to a religious establishment it would be a flight of fancy to dismiss the purpose and origins of such a stone as being other than an early/medieval Christian item. That said it must be remembered that there are examples of standing stones upon which were later re-worked into crosses. I doubt anyone on this thread is declaring that to be the case here.