Bert your response, which began with reference to my orginal comment, was clearly formed (even in part) as a rejoinder to my contribution, so please let's not quibble on that obvious fact.
Secondly your comments were indeed fallacious, and more precisely a Straw Man argument, which is defined as:
a fallacy committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
Erainn, you are only prepared to discuss a topic if it moves in the direction you want it to, if it doesn't take that course you then start accusing people of fallacy, once again you throw up the Straw man, seems to be your favorite character, I need no help from you on its definition, if i didn't know i am capable of looking it up myself. You seem to bring the worst out in people and your attitude will only stifle debate, not enhance it. If you can't accept other members views whether you think they are right or wrong then you are going to be debating with yourself. As previously stated, members come on here(History section) for fun, not to go to war. Having said that, carry on, there's always the ignore button.
God help us, Come yourself, Don't send Jesus, This is no place for children.
It would appear you, and one or two others here, have a somewhat twisted understanding of debate, in that you ignore completely what a contributor states, or distort and misrepresent comments to validate preconceived arguments. In what is a public forum it is entirely reasonable to expose such fallacy, what is not however acceptable is veiled insult, prejudice and personal attack.
Your initial response was indeed fallacious in that the argument you presented was based, not on what I had actually written, but on a distortion of your creation. My reply to that was not about 'direction' at all (another misrepresentation on your part) but simply pointing out that you were not addressing my comments.
The 'war' (again your indulgence in dramatic exagerration, first insect and rodent infestation , now armed aggression) you mention is a conflict formed by your own perception, although I note the cudgels were picked up by others.
Let me make this clear to you, my comments relate entirely to what you have written and are a critique in terms of debate, I am not interested in the sly insult and prejudice which others find so irresistable, and remain content to discuss the topic with anyone in a civilized and balanced fashion.
Person A makes a statement, person B disagrees, person C agrees with person A, person B restates their position, person D concurs with person B. So it goes with additional contributions. Then person A seeks some 'authorative academic' conclusion so invites opinion of Professor X, whose contribution features not conclusive evidence, but simply opinion. Person B highlights that, person A then disagrees with person B, person C agrees with person A.
Anyone of reasonable intelligence would consider such an exchange, on a public forum, on a topic of local history to be debate, as opposed to the more perjorative description of 'quibble', but then again I do not wish to quibble with you on that distinction
I grew up in a 2 bedroomed house,loo in the backyard,only a cold water tap, no bathroom, coal or coke kept under the stairs with door to it in the room we lived in and no electricity, only gaslights downstairs using candles upstairs. Being a child at the time and not used to anything better I only have memories of the activities we kids used to get involved in. When we moved to the Northend what luxories we had - Electricity,TV,Bathroom,garden. Although I never got to know many folks round here as I was now working and usually went out with a mate from downtown it was my younger brothers who grew up here and made good friends at school and locally. What I do miss from my younger days is the old market and Grange Road as it used to be with such a variety of shops and stalls much better than todays offerings
I grew up in a 2 bedroomed house,loo in the backyard,only a cold water tap, no bathroom, coal or coke kept under the stairs with door to it in the room we lived in and no electricity, only gaslights downstairs using candles upstairs.
Sounds virtually the same as my Gran's house in Windsor St. where I used to spend much of my time. The only difference was that the door to the coal under the stairs was in the back kitchen. Interesting that although it only had two rooms & a back kitchen I can never remember the front room being used. I think it was only ever used for special occasions (not many of them) and, of course, to lay out the dead.
Yet another property Derek a family was glad to see the back of and if its now hardcore for a car park, it serves a better purpose. What on earth were they thinking of building houses of that nature, its not that the technology wasn't available, its more, get them in there, that will do them, the community spirit will keep them going. I can understand your fondness for old Grange Rd and the old market, like everything else times move on, i suspect the modern shopper lik all the shops under one roof or like myself a retail park where i can park, get in the shop and get out. I wonder if the market still stood today would it have the same support as in our time, unlikely, probably be a 24 Tesco right next to it, then you would see where loyalties and nostalgia lie.
God help us, Come yourself, Don't send Jesus, This is no place for children.
Replaced by the asbestos joys and high rise alienation of Eldon and Oak Gardens, or the isolated social problems that would blight estates, such as Ford, within a couple of years of their construction. Whatever the shortcomings of ealier housing, the transformation of some areas of the town centre into waste land or car-parks is hardly a legacy that people can be proud of or indeed enhance any lingering sense of community. I think that is the 'loss' that the orginal post was addressing, not only the visual impact of effectively 'dead' zones, where people and families once lived, but the societal consequence too in, that communities, which despite the challenging conditions of basic housing, had thrived and developed over two generations, were in the space of a few years cast to the wind. This is not to romanticize conditions experienced by larger family sizes in basic and small accomodation, indeed life was challenging, certainly for folks fom Ireland such as my own family. Yet equally while there were obvious advantages to the modern housing that was to replace earlier stock, it would not be accurate or objective to portray them in an overly romantic gloss either. There were sersious social problems which emerged from both the high rise and estate 'solutions', meanwhile the town was indeed left with a number of areas home to cars or weeds, giving it an appearance of decline, as if the life had been removed from it. Perhaps this sense also contributes to the general feeling of some who understandably look at such places and cannot help but wonder if the planning was enlightened. There is much to celebrate in terms of individual living conditions, yet clearly the changes have not generated either the social or economic progress that planners may have hoped. Meanwhile, the individuality of shops and general character that Birkenhead (like many towns) possessed has been replaced with the ubiquitous multi-national retailers. Nostalgia for sure, however I would rather remember the town for the likes of Stubbs the bakers, Hinton's butchers, Farnsworth's barbers or Bob Martin's cordials than the soul-less experience that the 'developed' town center now is.
Harry Farnworth the barber was my "courtesy uncle" if that is the same chap. His shop was somewhere near Birkenhead Park railway station if my memory still works.
